Why did I not do this sooner?

[Silent Fly]

Thanks for your interests in the [sfx] micro-Thumpinator. I'll try to address the questions/points. I'm sure I'll forget something

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1327334336' post='1509480']
Great product but daft price.
£109 for a high pass filter ffs?
You could do the same job with a half decent P.A cross over for half the price.
OK not as small and portable but still..
[/quote]
You are of course entitled to your opinion Monckyman but I would like to ask you two questions:

1. The price of the micro-Thumpinator is daft compared to what product?

2. It may sound a silly question but how do you know that "You could do the same job with a half decent P.A cross"?

In my opinion, but I may be wrong, a P.A. crossover (half decent or otherwise) cannot do what the Thumpinator filter does. A few comments about it:

a. I can design crossovers and I designed the micro-Thumpinator. Simply based on the circuit design differences, there are no off-the-shelf crossovers that can do what the Thumpinator filter does.

b. Based on the specs, if a crossover would operate like a Thumpinator filter, it would be a very badly designed crossover. Conversely, if the Thumpinator was designed on the same principles of a crossover it would perform poorly.

c. You probably didn’t imply it but someone may assume that if a "half decent" product can do that the micro-Thumpinator does, the micro-Thumpinator might be a less than a half-decent product.

I would like to clarify that the [sfx] micro-Thumpinator is a professional product. It uses excellent quality part (e.g. gold-plated jacks) that standard pedals usually don’t use.

d. Just for the sake of the argument, let's assume that a generic crossover can perform Thumpinator filtering. As size does matter and there aren't any crossovers the size of a micro-Thumpinator, there aren't any crossovers that can do what a micro-Thumpinator does.

English is not my first language. Could you tell me what "ffs" stands for please?

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1327334412' post='1509483']
Talking about the SFX pedal? Yeah I've thought the prices were a bit steep myself, they do look like great quality though.
[/quote]
I understand that, in absolute terms, you may find them more expensive than what you are ready to spend. However, I am sure you agree, it's a little bit difficult assess a price without the comparison with product that offers similar functionalities and quality level.

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1327339750' post='1509602']
sorry if I'm getting this wrong. Does it take out the frequencies that make the cones move? And we can't hear these frequencies anyway? (...)
[/quote]
Q: Does it take out the frequencies that make the cones move?
A: Up to a certain point. The cone still moves, otherwise we couldn't hear any sound. It takes out the frequencies that make the cone move unnecessarily. In other words, the slow cone movements that are not strictly related to notes produced by the bass are removed.

Q: And we can't hear these frequencies anyway?
A: If the amp and the cabinet could reproduce them we could probably feel them more then hear them. But it would be noise not a musical note.

[quote name='Dread Bass' timestamp='1327362783' post='1510177']
I believe ACG/East preamps have this kind of filter built in as well.
[/quote]
I don’t know the technical details of the ACG preamp so I can only speculate.

As far as I know, the ACG/East preamp has a high pass filter that mitigates the subsonic frequencies. I don’t know the cut-off frequency of the filter or its slope though. However, I don’t think it is the same circuit. If it was, the batteries on the ACG preamp wouldn’t last long.

[quote name='lollington' timestamp='1327413305' post='1510771']I notice a low cut when using my EBS Multicomp. Does this encorporate a similar cut off or is it just a characteristic of multiband compression?[/quote]
I am not sure but I suspect it might be a characteristic of the multiband compression.

[quote name='lollington' timestamp='1327413305' post='1510771']The Micro Thumpinator looks bangarang, but it's a pity that it can't run from a 9v battery.
[/quote]
I don’t see it a bad thing. There are three main reasons:

- Size. Without the battery, the unit can be much smaller.
- Performance. With an external power supply, the circuit can be designed to use more current and this has an impact on the performance.
- Environment. Batteries are an ecological nightmare.

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1327416831' post='1510864']
Here` an example.
We listen to CDs recorded at 44.100 or 4800Khz as humans hearing is reckoned to go up to 20KHz and the theory (Nyquist) is we need at least twice the resolution of our upper limit.
Now of course we can record at double that, but most people can`t hear the difference and it costs more memory and resources,so we don`t.
The bottom end is the same. There are frequencies inaudible (or nearly so) that cost the amplifier a lot of juice to even attempt to reproduce.
So the solution is to remove anything below a set frequency (in the Thumpinator I believe it`s 30Hz) and this free`s up a lot of energy that can then go to reproducing frequencies you do want to hear.
MM
[/quote]
It a great description of what the Thumpinator filter can do Monckyman.

To be more specific, this happens in the subsonic area of the sound spectrum.

When we hit the string two events take place at the same time: the part of the signal related to the note has the maximum voltage and the maximum amount of subsonic noise is generated.

When we boost the low frequencies, we boost everything below a certain frequency (say 80 Hz). So we boost both aspects: music content below 80Hz + sub sonic noise. As the two are sent at the same time in the amplification system, they both contribute to make the amp work (and clip). If the subsonic noise is removed, only the note is amplified. The lack of subsonic noise leaves more headroom for the note.

[quote name='daz' timestamp='1327377237' post='1510287']
So the Boss GEB7 (or similar)wouldnt be up to it, as it starts at 50Hz ?
[/quote]
It wouldn’t work even it the lowest frequency available was 30Hz. The filter type is different.

The Thumpinator filter and equalizers work well together but they cannot be interchanged.

[charic]

Hi silent fly,
Great of you to join in the conversation. Just to clarify when I said the prices are quite steep this was purely in comparison to generic off the shelf products. I'm sure you have done all the appropriate market research and it all stacks up for you.

Keep up the good work, I hope to try some of your pedals sometime in the near future

[Monckyman]

Hey Silent Fly, apologies for damning your product with casual disdain.
You`re right, a crossover doesn`t do what the thumpinator does, and although it could shelve at a decently low frequency, it wouldn`t drop off quickly enough to be as effective as your product.
Although I do respect the quality with which this item is produced, I still find it expensive!
I suppose once bought lasts a lifetime.
I`ll certainly buy one when I have more money than bills!
Thanks for directly answering the queries in this thread.
Regards,
MM

[Silent Fly]

No problem Monckyman I like to discuss with people that are not afraid to say what they think.

I think it is down to the words we use more than anything else. I would use the words “more than I am ready to spend”, “more than I can afford” or “more than I usually spend for a pedal”. “Expensive” or “cheap” require the comparison with at least another product that performs the same functionalities.

It like saying that a Ferrari is expensive. It is certainly well above what I can afford if I need to buy a car. It is more than I am ready to spend and it is vastly more than I ever spent in car. Is it expensive? Well, in my opinion it isn’t. If you compare it with a car with similar performance, reputation and prestige, it is “relatively” affordable. One has to be ready to spend that kind of money of course.

Try this test. Go in a Lamborghini show room and say to the sales person exactly these words: “Great car but daft price. £200000 for a car ffs? You could do the same job with a half decent car for fraction of the price. OK not as fast and comfortable but still..”.

Thy this other test. Go in Armani show room and say to the sales person “Great suit but daft price. £2000 for a suit ffs? You could do the same job with a half decent suit for fraction of the price. OK not as cool and comfortable but still..”.

I am sure you get my point.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Silent Fly

[discreet]

Hi SF, thanks for posting... a couple of questions, and apologies if this has already been covered... I understand what the Thumpinator does, but as I posted early on, a lot of bass cabs (or drivers at least) have a lower limit of 50Hz or so and won't reproduce frequencies below this. Does this mean the unit would not be necessary if that were the only sound source for bass guitar?

And if this is the case, would it then be an advantage to have the unit when using PA support, as the bass would be sent to the desk, where the PA had a lower limit of say, 20Hz? Or would the FOH engineer have taken care of everything below around 30Hz anyway?

Thanks very much.

[Silent Fly]

A lot of interesting points Discreet. I’ll try to address all of them.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328266398' post='1524569'](...) a lot of bass cabs (or drivers at least) have a lower limit of 50Hz or so and won't reproduce frequencies below this. Does this mean the unit would not be necessary if that were the only sound source for bass guitar? (...)[/quote]

The Thumpinator filter would be useful for two reasons:

- The amp would still send the frequencies below the lower limit of the cab to the cab. The energy that the cones cannot transform in sound is converted in heat. This, in the log run, may shorten the life of the cones.

- Amp and preamp process the subsonic noise as well – even if the cab cannot convert it sound waves. Usually, if the cab cannot go low as we would like we boost the bass frequency with the EQ on the bass and/or on the amp. This unfortunately boosts the subsonic noise as well. If the subsonic noise is removed, the headroom available increase.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328266398' post='1524569'](...) And if this is the case, would it then be an advantage to have the unit when using PA support, as the bass would be sent to the desk, where the PA had a lower limit of say, 20Hz? (...)[/quote]

Generally speaking, if the PA can go low to 10Hz, it is a good idea removing the low frequency noise. The main reason is that the bass drum uses that frequency space. If the bass produces the same frequency, the two signals may clash.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328266398' post='1524569'](...) Or would the FOH engineer have taken care of everything below around 30Hz anyway?[/quote]

It depends. Some sound engineers have their system fine tuned to perform at its best but this is a rare exception. Moreover, in my experience, analogue mixers don’t have suitable HP filters tuned for bass guitar.

If don’t have an amp and you play directly in the PA removing the subsonic noise is good thing to do. Apart from frequency overlap considerations, it is likely that a properly filtered signal will make the input stage of the mixer clip less. The sound engineer will increase the input gain and you will get a signal with a better signal/noise ratio.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Silent Fly' timestamp='1328265579' post='1524552']
I think it is down to the words we use more than anything else. I would use the words “more than I am ready to spend”, “more than I can afford” or “more than I usually spend for a pedal”. “Expensive” or “cheap” require the comparison with at least another product that performs the same functionalities.
[/quote]

Not exactly, perceived value also reflects cost and complexity of production. On the face of it, the micro thumpinator looks expensive for a high-pass filter. There are various PA crossovers with steep HPFs, though obviously input impedance would not be appropriate for passive instruments so they'd need to run in an FX loop.

Rather than just saying that the thumpinator is 'professional' I would be very interested in what you think it offers in terms of electronics, ie filter topology, max clean output voltage/dynamic range, input impedance and any other design features. I have wondered about buying one in the past because it is a well-conceived device but without professional specifications it is too expensive/too much of an unknown in my signal chain.

ps Gold-plated jacks per se don't matter (as I'm sure you know), it has to be a thick coating of gold not to wear out at the contact points with only a few uses. Good quality is far more important, so I'd be more interested in what brand the sockets are!

[discreet]

[size=4][quote name='Silent Fly' timestamp='1328272575' post='1524709']
A lot of interesting points Discreet. I’ll try to address all of them.
[/quote]

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this SF, very interesting indeed and clearly put. So it would seem a Thumpinator is a good idea regardless... reading this thread it looks like the unit goes between the bass and your pre-amp/DI, like a conventional pedal? Which means that the extraneous subsonic noise we are trying to remove is coming from the bass, obviously? If you're using other effects, would the unit go pre- or post these?[/size]

[size=4]I'm always up for new ways to increase headroom! Thanks! [/size][size=4] [/size]

Edited February 3, 2012 by discreet

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328277321' post='1524819']


[size=4]Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this SF, very interesting indeed and clearly put. So it would seem a Thumpinator is a good idea regardless... reading this thread it looks like the unit goes between the bass and your pre-amp/DI, like a conventional pedal? If you're using other effects, would the unit go pre- or post these? Thanks![/size]
[/quote]

From what i've read it can go anywhere put preferably after an octave pedal as some lose tracking if you put it before.

[Conan]

This is fascinating! I had never heard of this device before, and I would be very interested to try one. Increasing the efficiency of our speaker cabinets by getting them to concentrate on only the useful frequencies seems like a very simple but very intelligent idea!

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328277321' post='1524819']
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this SF (...)[/quote]
It is a pleasure Discreet. If you need more information please feel free to ask.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328277321' post='1524819'](...) reading this thread it looks like the unit goes between the bass and your pre-amp/DI, like a conventional pedal? Which means that the extraneous subsonic noise we are trying to remove is coming from the bass, obviously? If you're using other effects, would the unit go pre- or post these?[/quote]

There are different opinions about it. I use it at the first pedal - just after the bass. Other people use it between preamp and amp, other as the least effect of the pedalboard. I recommend my customers to try it in different places.

[simwells]

Could these be run at 12v? Also if so could one be made up centre positive, as I'd run it in my rack and I already have a 12V centre positive supply into it.

[shizznit]

Used a BBE Sonic Maximiser through the effects send/return with my old Warwick rig and the results were amazing. I now use it in my effects rack at my home studio and works really well with electric and and acoustic guitars.

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328275705' post='1524779']
(...) On the face of it, the micro thumpinator looks expensive for a high-pass filter. (...)[/quote]

Exactly like a Ferrari looks expensive for a car or a Fodera looks expensive for a bass.

What you say may be true but, until I see a product that performs the same functions with the same performance and the same size, I remain unconvinced.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328275705' post='1524779']
(...) There are various PA crossovers with steep HPFs, though obviously input impedance would not be appropriate for passive instruments so they'd need to run in an FX loop. (...)[/quote]

In a previous post I explained the difference in PA crossover and the Thumpinator filtering and why they cannot be compared.

Let’s assume that, for argument sake, they can be interchanged (which they can’t). All [sfx] customers that purchased a micro-Thumpinator made a mistake? They would have been better off buying a crossover? They could have saved money buying a crossover instead? I am really struggling to understand your point.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328275705' post='1524779'] Rather than just saying that the thumpinator is 'professional' I would be very interested in what you think it offers in terms of electronics, ie filter topology, max clean output voltage/dynamic range, input impedance and any other design features. I have wondered about buying one in the past because it is a well-conceived device but without professional specifications it is too expensive/too much of an unknown in my signal chain.[/quote]

You have a point. I used the word “professional” because I didn’t want to write a super-long post but I’ll be happy to give more information (I’ll avoid technical terms as much as I can):

- double side circuit board with ground plane and double thickness copper tracks
- Neutrik jack connectors
- audio grade semiconductors
- low noise resistors
- high quality capacitors
- 18V peak-to-peak dynamic (in/out)
- electrostatic input protection
- hand made
- circuit board attached to the enclosure with stainless steels screws
- 1M ohm input impedance (other values available on request)

Filter topology is not an information I am ready to make public.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328275705' post='1524779']
ps Gold-plated jacks per se don't matter (as I'm sure you know), it has to be a thick coating of gold not to wear out at the contact points with only a few uses. (...)[/quote]
I would be surprised if Neutrik sold jack sockets with the gold coating that wears out after a few uses.

[LawrenceH]

Firstly, can I say thank you for the extra detail! It is useful. However, I don't understand where you have explained the difference between your product and a HPF on a typical crossover, perhaps I have missed this post but all I can see is one where you state that they are different without saying why. That is the point I'm not getting.

[quote name='Silent Fly' timestamp='1328284951' post='1525014']
Filter topology is not an information I am ready to make public
...
I would be surprised if Neutrik sold jack sockets with the gold coating that wears out after a few uses.
[/quote]

That is why I asked about brand! A very thin gold coating wears almost immediately unless alloyed, that's just an engineering fact, and better quality plugs are important for several reasons. Neutrik are excellent, of course, and are the answer I was hoping for.

It is fair that you are not willing to state the full filter topology but the steepness of slope is a critical bit of info, are you willing to disclose this? If not, if I already have a 24dB/oct LR or BW-type filter I would like to know how your product matches or outperforms it. It can't be seen from the photo on your page because there is no scale on the y axis.

Regarding my point that you don't get, it is that without knowing what it is that differentiates the product from a typical HPF other than a smaller box, it is hard to assess it's value. The construction info is useful and helps explain the cost, but info on the electronic behaviour is lacking. I am more used to products in PA/broadcast/studio work where the specs are generally disclosed more readily.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer questions.

[Lfalex v1.1]

My qsc power amp has a built in hpf, selectable on the rear panel. It can be switched off/30hz/50 hz. I leave it on 30hz, and even that improves the sound by conserving power that would otherwise vw wasted in trying to reproduce frequencies the cabs can't handle well.

[Silent Fly]

Leaving the micro-Thumpinator out of the discussion for a moment, there is another element, more general, about the cost of the pieces of gear we all own.

Behringer ULTRA METAL UM300 £16
Boss MZ-2 £75

They perform the same function (I wouldn’t be surprised if they use the same circuit) and they are the same size. How come that one costs more than 4 times the other?

I have nothing against either pedal. They both perform well for their price (i.e. I would be ready to pay the money asked for either of them).

The real difference is who want to buy them and what they expect. Some people (A) don’t really care about the quality, they have a low budget and they play in their bedroom. Behringer works great for them.

Others (B) appreciate the higher quality, they can spend more and they play for other people as well. Boss covers their needs.

Let’s try see things as if we were (A). Boss for them is too expensive. Or, as I prefer to say, it is outside their budget. There is no reason for them to buy Boss. Compared to Behringer, Boss doesn’t offer them anything more of what they need.

If we see things from (B) viewpoint, Boss is the right price and Behringer is something what would be happy to live without.

If the UM300 and the MZ-2 were exactly the same, (A) and ( B) could both say that the MZ-2 is an expensive unit. It wound be a fact substantiated by solid data.

As UM300 and the MZ-2 are different, both viewpoints are valid. But they are opinions not facts.

Back to [sfx], I am in the business of building audio tools for professional users. I am not interested in building cheap units. I have nothing against that people that do it but it is not something I want to do.

The vast majority of my customers share my view of what an audio unit should do and how it should perform. If one cannot appreciate or hear the quality of [sfx] products I think s/he shouldn’t buy [sfx]. There are units that can cover their needs better.

All professional musicians, recording engineers and producers that use [sfx] products gave me very positive feedbacks with a lot of them purchasing more units. This is what I do – high quality gear for people interested in buying it.

As an example, all the tracks of [url="http://andysalvanos.bandcamp.com"]this digital album[/url] were recorded using the [url="http://www.sfxsound.co.uk/mainpage.asp?page=sp2"][sfx] SP2[/url]. You can listen to the entire CD for free but if you like it please buy it. The price is “name your price”.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Silent Fly' timestamp='1328284185' post='1525002']
... other as the last effect of the pedalboard. I recommend my customers to try it in different places.
[/quote]

That would be me, then. I just assumed from the start that the best place to put it would be just before hitting the amp. When Max saw where I had it, he mentioned that he puts his first so I tried that - in fact I am trying that at the moment.

I have to say, I prefer it at the end of the chain rather than the start. YMMV.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328286121' post='1525032']
Firstly, can I say thank you for the extra detail! It is useful. However, I don't understand where you have explained the difference between your product and a HPF on a typical crossover, perhaps I have missed this post but all I can see is one where you state that they are different without saying why. That is the point I'm not getting.

[/quote]

I refer the Honorable Member to Post #15.

Even if a PA crossover could perform the same function as a Thumpinator, it wouldn't be the same size, would it? It wouldn't weigh the same, would it? It probably wouldn't even be fire-and-forget, would it?

If it doesn't walk like a duck, and it doesn't quack like a duck, then it's not a duck.

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328286121' post='1525032']
(...) However, I don't understand where you have explained the difference between your product and a HPF on a typical crossover, perhaps I have missed this post but all I can see is one where you state that they are different without saying why. That is the point I'm not getting.[/quote]

I'll tell you everything I can:

- Crossovers use a certain type of circuit tuned in a certain way. The Thumpinator is designed with different target parameters.

- If a crossover had the same characteristic of a Thumpinator it would be considered a bad crossover. If a Thumpinator had the characteristic of a crossover it wouldn't perform as it does.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328286121' post='1525032'] That is why I asked about brand! A very thin gold coating wears almost immediately unless alloyed, that's just an engineering fact, and better quality plugs are important for several reasons. Neutrik are excellent, of course, and are the answer I was hoping for.[/quote]

I entirely take your point and you are of course right. When you asked the question I knew you were hoping for Neutrik.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328286121' post='1525032'] It is fair that you are not willing to state the full filter topology but the steepness of slope is a critical bit of info, are you willing to disclose this? If not, if I already have a 24dB/oct LR or BW-type filter I would like to know how your product matches or outperforms it. It can't be seen from the photo on your page because there is no scale on the y axis.[/quote]

It outperforms it.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328286121' post='1525032']
Regarding my point that you don't get, it is that without knowing what it is that differentiates the product from a typical HPF other than a smaller box, it is hard to assess it's value.[/quote]

You can of course evaluate pieces of gear as you like but I suggest you base your assessment on how the unit actually sounds and what other people you respect say about it.

Just for my personal curiosity, could you give an example of typical HPF you are referring to?

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1328286121' post='1525032']
Thanks again for taking the time to answer questions.
[/quote]

It's a pleasure.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Silent Fly

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1328287972' post='1525076']
If it doesn't walk like a duck, and it doesn't quack like a duck, then it's not a duck.


[/quote]

[discreet]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1328287606' post='1525065']
I have to say, I prefer it at the end of the chain rather than the start. YMMV.
[/quote]

Why do you prefer it, Jack? Does it sound different?

Edited February 3, 2012 by discreet

[franzbassist]

Do you have any Thumpinators in stock at the moment Max?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328289109' post='1525099']
Why do you prefer it, Jack? Does it sound different?
[/quote]

Yes, but as previously mentioned, the effect is subtle and it can be hard to describe.

From a purely logical point of view, given that the intention is to avoid having the amp/cab combination waste energy trying to reproduce frequencies below a set level, it follows that the unit should be immediately before the amp/cab combo. That way, any unwanted low frequencies introduced anywhere in the signal chain will be filtered out.

From an auditory point of view, the only effect which lives permanently on my board is an [sfx] Burninator - a custom unit which combines the [sfx] MicroFuzz with a Phaser. I'm guessing that this unit can receive and handle very low frequencies, which then re-surface as interesting harmonics and general "texture". Putting the Thumpinator before this unit seems to lose some of that texture.

Whether any of this is particularly noticeable in the mix when we play [b][i]Spirit In The Sky[/i][/b] at midnight to a heaving pub ... well, that's debateable.

But I like it. (It's only rock'n'roll.)

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='Moos3h' timestamp='1327227935' post='1507922']
Last week I bought a rack EQ as I was curious to see how much difference it would make to my tone when gigging.

I used it last night with total roll off of 25 and 30 hz, nothing else, and the difference was immense - tighter, more focused sound and way more volume available before the speaker could be feel the pressure.

So impressed, and well worth the money!

This makes me wonder why more amps dont have sub sonic filters fitted to take out the frequencies that cause rumble and not much else?
Cheers
James
[/quote]


Out of interest James, what rack unit were you using ?

Thanks

T