Jimmyp28 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate. So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified. Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf . Am not disagreeing with the fact that these instruments are not brilliant in there own way (glad I got that disclaimer out of the way :-) ) But its just the fact that they charge an extraordinary amount of money for some thing which really is not justified in any other way other than the fact you are buying in to a brand. Tiffany do it all the time with silver, which I know cost nothing compared to the mark up that they make, these “high end” bass luthiers are no different. the whole problem I have with this is that once you start charging that much you are starting to make musical instruments an elites item, that is a commodity for the better off when in reality it would help every one if a higher calibre of instrument was available to every one and in turn that would help every one become better players. And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos. A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price. B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag I think the point of this rant is that I want to open the floor to every one to actually speak about this and not be accused of “trolling” to put together there thoughts in a concise manner which can lead to a mutual understanding of people on every side. I know which side I stand on but I would love to hear what other people think that could lead me to understand why and how this has happened in the bass world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinehead Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Read this.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hand building a through neck bass.... how many hours? How big a house do you think it is fair for Jens Ritter to house any children he may have in? Some things are paying for the brand, but others are the man hours and materials and the fact that successful luthiers maybe want to not worry about their pension. There are expensive cars made by exclusive companies. Is that in different? no you buy what you want, and as a producer you make what you want, and price it where you want to. If you find something way way cheaper than it's value tell us! and if I spend way more than it's value on some fancy bass more fool me. so apart from coming out defending capitalism, at least at the small scale end the companies you mention operate in, I have one major problem with your idea.... This idea about fodera, wall and so on making instrument elitist.... problems I have with it: A: for about £200 you can get a perfectly great bass. the cheap stuff now, is quite good. If someone is a good musician they are a good musician- what they plan means sh!t. I sold my old fretless to this amazing player for £150, do you realise how bad I sounded on that bass? I don't think the bass had anything to do with it.... lets say it again.... [b]The cost of the instrument has little link to the quality of the player[/b] B: question: have you seen how much other instruments cost? and acoustic instruments where the construction has more effect on the sound? you want a top, and I mean top quality bass to be a pro bass player, what you do? I dunno £3k on a overwater for most the gigs will do..... ask a pro violinist how much his or her instrument is worth.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The selling price of any product is market driven - if a consumer base is willing to pay £x for a product then, with a little tweaking here and there to entice certain types of customer, that is what the item will initially sell for. If the market can't support that price then it either drops or the business folds. It's probably also worth mentioning that the major manufacturers are kitted up to produce several hundred if not thousands of basses a day and are making economies of scale. An independant maker will produce perhaps a dozen basses a week, not make the cost savings that mass production brings and still have to stay profitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstrike Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 And what the hell is with Ferrari and Porsche, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 In the grand scheme of things, £5k for a pro bass is nothing. You go to any woodwind, brass, or strings player that plays music for a living and ask them how much their gear costs. My landlady and landlord are a French Horn player/teacher and a Trombonist with the BBC Symphonic (respectively) and their instruments have a combined value of nearly £20k! Just suck it up! I know I'll never be able to justify spending that sort of money on an instrument and I've dealt with it. Im happy making friends with people that own these incredible instruments and just having a go. I know I'll always prefer my Blazer anyway. Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) The best playing bass I own is an old knacker of a thing which cost me a hundred quid + another hundred or so on bits. You should see the smile on my face every time I walk in to a shop and pick up something expensive to compare it against... Companies that price their goods well above what most of us are happy to pay aren't robbing culture of future musicians, their products may be technically superior and made from exotic 'tone woods' but the practical (and somewhat debatable) advantages to be gained from owning such instruments would almost certainly be lost on a novice anyway. There's nothing that says a kid can't pick up a decent, playable bass for little money, practice hard, learn how to look after it and in time be playing like a boss. An expensive bass isn't going to make any of that easier. Edited January 25, 2012 by waldemar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631'] Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate. So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified. Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf . Am not disagreeing with the fact that these instruments are not brilliant in there own way (glad I got that disclaimer out of the way :-) ) But its just the fact that they charge an extraordinary amount of money for some thing which really is not justified in any other way other than the fact you are buying in to a brand. Tiffany do it all the time with silver, which I know cost nothing compared to the mark up that they make, these “high end” bass luthiers are no different. the whole problem I have with this is that once you start charging that much you are starting to make musical instruments an elites item, that is a commodity for the better off when in reality it would help every one if a higher calibre of instrument was available to every one and in turn that would help every one become better players. And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos. A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price. B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag I think the point of this rant is that I want to open the floor to every one to actually speak about this and not be accused of “trolling” to put together there thoughts in a concise manner which can lead to a mutual understanding of people on every side. I know which side I stand on but I would love to hear what other people think that could lead me to understand why and how this has happened in the bass world. [/quote] The only ethical issues involved are the wood sources. Have a look at the ethics of the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the technology you use, and get back on here for a chat mate. Cheap sh*t is where the ethical problems usually lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631'] Fodera, Wal and kevin smith [/quote] Ken Smith's younger (and less talented) brother. Bit of needle between them, apparently. Kevin finds out what Ken's building on any given day (spy camera), whacks out an inferior copy and charges Ken's customers twice as much. Ken phones him up, like WTF? and Kevin goes "Dunno what you're talking about. Are you drinking again, Ken?" So why has this happened? Because people have more money than sense, but it's theirs to do with as they will and, in any case, who cares because a Squier is as good as a Fodera anyway. Better, in fact. Edited January 25, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I never get these kinds of arguments. The reason companies that do well exist is because there is demand for their product, so the people who buy the product obviously think said product is worth it. There's nothing wrong with having faith in a company that provides good quality products. Brands that fail to provide quality of service and quality of product deserve to fail as businesses, that I take issue with. But I don't think Fodera falls under this category. They're incredibly specialist, and if people want to invest in a bass from Fodera, I don't see an issue. Don't buy one if you're loosing sleep over it, it can't possibly be simpler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't get where the 'ethical responsibility' bit comes in. As far as that goes I'd say a luthier is well down the list compared to an energy company or a bank, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Personally, I'd be more concerned about the ethical practices of the manufacturer/factory that is making tens of thousands of units each year, as opposed to the luthier who is crafting tens of pieces. Just on the bare numbers, that manufacturer/factory will be consuming raw materials in vast quantities, and generating waste in similarly vast quantities, leaving aside the longevity of the product produce, which very often is significantly less than luthier crafted instrument. But, part of the basic argument you're proposing would appear to be that if I were to own and drive a Ferrari I'd be a better driver than if I were to own and drive a Ford, which I'd suggest is fallacious at best. If pressed, I'd actually say that argument is idiotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [size=4]I think you are confused.[/size] [size=4]Ethical issues are about selling goods made in "sweat shops" by child labour, ivory and Tiger hunters, etc. [/size] [size=4]Bentley, Rolex, Fodera, Choo, The Savoy might be expensive but what's that got to do with ethics?[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1327456860' post='1511714'][size=4]I think you are confused.[/size] [size=4]Ethical issues are about selling goods made in "sweat shops" by child labour, ivory and Tiger hunters, etc.[/size][/quote] Agreed. The OP's arguments, as articulated, are somewhat confused. That said, deforestation and trading/utilising endangered species, such as Brazilian rosewood and Abalone shell, certainly raise issues connected with the ethical sourcing/use of input materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1327457888' post='1511718']...deforestation and trading/utilising endangered species, such as Brazilian rosewood and Abalone shell, certainly raise issues connected with the ethical sourcing/use of input materials. [/quote] Yes... but the amount of tropical woods used by independent specialist luthiers for bass guitars is nothing compared to that imported by the USA (for example) for furniture and other purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327459063' post='1511719']Yes... but the amount of tropical woods used by independent specialist luthiers for bass guitars is nothing ...[/quote] That was me just suggesting a couple of "ethics" issues. Totally agree about the mass manufacturers, whether it be of guitars or tables, and the potential harm those are doing to the environment, in terms of consumption of natural resources and industrial waste/pollution, before even discussing exploitation of labour markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I don't think many people are getting rich building high-end instruments. My brother is a luthier, building classical guitars at 3k to 3.5k a time. The business is ticking over nicely, but he doesn't have a particularly lavish lifestyle and probably works longer and takes home less than your average skilled worker. While there are fewer man-hours in most electric basses, I suspect the smaller bass outfits operate in a similar way. I think we're just not used to paying developed-country wages for manufactured goods any more. Edited January 25, 2012 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What a wonderful topic this is. And now I'll get back to reading my Socialist Worker Annual 1982. Far more satisfying than thinking about these so-called "high end" rip-off fat-cat luthiers who swan around unethically in fancy cars while grinding the poor into the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylkinut Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I'm totally with you - we should completely do away with individual high-end luthiers. They need to be nationalised into the State Instrument Production Facility No.1 to produce top-end instruments - all of which will adhere to the Singular Design - in return for basic housing and ration coupons. These instruments will be distributed freely to all citizens, regardless of skill, wealth or class. So long as they're members of the Party. Edited January 25, 2012 by Mylkinut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So if you were offered 10x your current wage for the same job you'd turn it down because it wouldn't be fair? Why should luthiers turn away money? They've got lives to lead too and sometimes upping the price a bit would reduce the number of orders so that they can actually keep up with the order book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Crying about something like an 'overpriced' guitar is pointless and self-indulgent unless there is an alternative. What would the OP suggest should be done about people charging high prices for their products? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylkinut Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1327480314' post='1511806'] Crying about something like an 'overpriced' guitar is pointless and self-indulgent unless there is an alternative. What would the OP suggest should be done about people charging high prices for their products? [/quote] Show-trials and public executions comrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631'] And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos. A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price. B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag [/quote] That is, indeed, your problem right there - your assumption that there is a 'right price' for an instrument. Who would you suggest should decide on the 'right price'? The problem is your use of the word "worthy". It is an entirely subjective concept. When you become a global dictator then you'll be able to impose your own particular value system on everyone else. Until then, you'll just have to put up with people having the freedom to make their own choices and their own decisions. Bummer eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'd say there is more of an ethical issue behind buying cheap Chinese (or your low-cost labour hole of choice) made basses. How much do you think your average non-party sweat shop worker gets in a land of human-rights abuses? Do you ever play a low-priced Squier and wonder "how do they do this for so little money"? You should. There are reasons multi-nationals are swarming into China to have their goods produced and it isn't because their kung-fu skills and tasty curries. So I say this to you, brothers and sisters, support skilled labour working in a free (to an extent) society, boycott cheap basses and buy quality! Buy from those whose price is a fair return for the skills, labour and materials involved, not from vultures exploiting a forcibly lower waged and abused workforce. Say no to oppression! Huzzah for freedom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631'] Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate. So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified. Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf . Am not disagreeing with the fact that these instruments are not brilliant in there own way (glad I got that disclaimer out of the way :-) ) But its just the fact that they charge an extraordinary amount of money for some thing which really is not justified in any other way other than the fact you are buying in to a brand. Tiffany do it all the time with silver, which I know cost nothing compared to the mark up that they make, these “high end” bass luthiers are no different. the whole problem I have with this is that once you start charging that much you are starting to make musical instruments an elites item, that is a commodity for the better off when in reality it would help every one if a higher calibre of instrument was available to every one and in turn that would help every one become better players. And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos. A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price. B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag I think the point of this rant is that I want to open the floor to every one to actually speak about this and not be accused of “trolling” to put together there thoughts in a concise manner which can lead to a mutual understanding of people on every side. I know which side I stand on but I would love to hear what other people think that could lead me to understand why and how this has happened in the bass world. [/quote] ^ lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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