ethical responsibility from high end luthiers

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1327802219' post='1517127']
Giffen...
[/quote]

Interesting. Very interesting. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good"]http://en.wikipedia....iki/Giffen_good[/url]

The example paradox of consumers buying more of a good as its price goes up (poor people / staple foods) because the price rise forces them to divert their expenditure from more expensive, higher quality foods. So they have to eat more of the crappy stuff to make up the nutritional difference.

Sounds very like supermarket pricing strategy. Cost of 'basics' brand items has pretty much doubled in the last couple of years, whereas more expensive goods have gone up comparatively less, maybe 10-20%.

[i]That's[/i] unethical, IMO. And totally legal, of course.

Silddx is right - "Cheap sh*t is where the ethical problems usually lie".

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited January 29, 2012 by skankdelvar

[Leon Transaxle]

Hi,
I have skim read a lot, but not all, of this thread so apologies for any repetition.
There is a fundamental disconnect between ethics and the cost of what constitutes luxury items.
You can associate ethics with cost for essential items such as bread, milk, water, electricity; anything where an inflated price, be it arfificial or real, would cause genuine hardship for those most in need. A high end bass guitar does not fall into this category.
In a fair society basic staples should be available for everyone; this does not etend to the right to a meal in a MIchelin star restaurant.
And really this is where ethics end with relation to these high end instruments.
As has been said several times before ethics is a far more pertinent thing to consider in relation to the work conditions of low cost instruments.
As for all other high end goods the market will decide what it wants to pay. If something is genuinely overpriced it will not sell. Ocasionally someone with more money than sense will come along but sooner or later reality bites.

Basically to buy from a one=man band luthier is the most ethical way to purchase a bass. The lower the price point the poorer those manufacturing the instrument will have been paid and possibly the poorer they will have been treated. You need to look no further than the cost stratification of Fender products to demonstrate this. From Custom shop to MIA to MIM to the latest China made Modern Players.

Although not specifically talking about basses I read an article today in a gutiar magazine that Guild acoustic requires 30 man hours in actual manufacture alone. This is on top of drying time etc. So lets say a skilled worker gets paid ten quid an hour. That's £300 in labour costs alone. Now the wood used is aged on site for two years so that means significant square footage dedicated to a huge pile of wood alone. The time taken is reduced to 30 hours by utilising highly specialist and very expensive equipment like CNC machines, laser cutters etc. There is a balance here. You could dispense with the expensive equipment and spend more time making the instrument. One way or another it is money going out either in wages or paying of the loan to buy or lease the equipment.
Maybe the OP should take a trip through the build diaries affiliates market to get an idea of the work involved. I found RIM basses highly informative.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Leon Transaxle' timestamp='1327871630' post='1518111']
The lower the price point the poorer those manufacturing the instrument will have been paid and possibly the poorer they will have been treated. You need to look no further than the cost stratification of Fender products to demonstrate this. From Custom shop to MIA to MIM to the latest China made Modern Players.

Although not specifically talking about basses I read an article today in a gutiar magazine that Guild acoustic requires 30 man hours in actual manufacture alone. This is on top of drying time etc. So lets say a skilled worker gets paid ten quid an hour. That's £300 in labour costs alone. Now the wood used is aged on site for two years so that means significant square footage dedicated to a huge pile of wood alone. The time taken is reduced to 30 hours by utilising highly specialist and very expensive equipment like CNC machines, laser cutters etc. There is a balance here. You could dispense with the expensive equipment and spend more time making the instrument. One way or another it is money going out either in wages or paying of the loan to buy or lease the equipment.
[/quote]

Paying people less, in a country where the cost of living is less, does not always have to mean they are being treated poorly. In terms of quality - one man with a CNC in the USA, one man with a CNC machine in China, if the wood is the same the only difference is location.

Jens Ritter has said in interviews people think he is raking it in, whereas in reality he sometimes still has trouble paying the rent.

[tauzero]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1327480314' post='1511806']
Crying about something like an 'overpriced' guitar is pointless and self-indulgent unless there is an alternative.
[/quote]

Don't you mean "unless there is [b]no[/b] alternative"? We're not forced to buy Foderas [i]et [W]al[/i], the market is brimming over with basses at all price points. We do have the option to point at people with fretless Foderas and laught because they've paid an extra $500 for Fodera not to put any frets in, or ask whether a Ritter bass has a secure enough neck joint. And if we want a luthier built bass, as the OP says, we can go to a luthier and get one made for a fair bit less than a Fodera would cost.

[Mylkinut]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1327873511' post='1518159']
Paying people less, in a country where the cost of living is less, does not always have to mean they are being treated poorly. In terms of quality - one man with a CNC in the USA, one man with a CNC machine in China, if the wood is the same the only difference is location.
[/quote]

It doesn't always have to mean it but it more than often does. I'm in Vietnam at the moment and, having visited a few factories and craft centres, it's really a push to say Vietnamese (or Chinese, Thai etc etc) workers get the same treatment as workers in the West. Proportionately less pay, less days off, longer hours, (usually) worse working conditions, harsh terms. There's also more than enough evidence of poor treatment of Korean workers at Cort plants to be found on the web.

Silddx is right here.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1327865415' post='1517937']
Interesting. Very interesting. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good"]http://en.wikipedia....iki/Giffen_good[/url]

The example paradox of consumers buying more of a good as its price goes up (poor people / staple foods) because the price rise forces them to divert their expenditure from more expensive, higher quality foods. So they have to eat more of the crappy stuff to make up the nutritional difference.

Sounds very like supermarket pricing strategy. Cost of 'basics' brand items has pretty much doubled in the last couple of years, whereas more expensive goods have gone up comparatively less, maybe 10-20%.

[i]That's[/i] unethical, IMO. And totally legal, of course.

Silddx is right - "Cheap sh*t is where the ethical problems usually lie".

[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

Bingo, and with the economic pressures we're experiencing, this is where I would be spending my time worrying. You'll see more people getting locked into that dynamic.

[Mokl]

I think I might start a thread questioning the ethics of Squier pricing. I mean, come on, how can they sell them for so little?

[Leon Transaxle]

[quote name='Mokl' timestamp='1328533148' post='1528522']
I think I might start a thread questioning the ethics of Squier pricing. I mean, come on, how can they sell them for so little?
[/quote]

You may or not be saying this in jest but above all other areas [b]this[/b] is where ethics coem into play.

[flyfisher]

I understand the sentiment but ethical pricing is a relative thing isn't it? We're basically talking about how much someone's time is worth. Well, if the going rate for a day's labour somewhere is $2 and that enables someone to feed their family is that 'ethical'. Or would it be more 'ethical' to pay them $4, which might allow their kids to stay on a school for longer. Or should we pay them the average UK daily salary, even though they wouldn't have anywhere near the outgoings of the average UK person? Perhaps we should relocate them to the UK so they can then enjoy our particular lifestyle? And what if an investment banker on £1m per year decides to retire early and starts making custom basses? Should they be priced at £100k each if he can only make 10 per year?

In a free market economy, this whole discussion is pointless. Prices will sort themselves out.

In a command-and-control economy, then there might well be a mechanism for controlling the price of such things, but let's not pretend we can have both.

[Mokl]

[quote name='Leon Transaxle' timestamp='1328551979' post='1528982']
You may or not be saying this in jest but above all other areas [b]this[/b] is where ethics coem into play.
[/quote]

Yes, that is what I meant.

[sprocket123]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1327450652' post='1511635']
Read this....

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good"]http://en.wikipedia....iki/Veblen_good[/url]

Frank.
[/quote]

You nailed it buddy

[JTUK]

I want to get me one of Kev's basses.. I hear they are the ticket and going cheap now.

[TomRichards]

I own inexpensive imports (Brubaker Brute, Tobias KZ), high end US mass production (Kubicki, Guild, Kramer, Steinberger) and boutique (Brubaker, Spector). Each one has a price point for a reason.

I know a lot of the boutique builders personally, Kevin Brubaker, Stu Spector, Phil Kubicki, Roger Sadowsky among them, and with little exception none of them are making Wall Street money or even close. Do they live well? Yes. Do they own mansions? No. Do they take 6 month vacations twice a year? No. Do they have a nice car, home, and send their kids to good colleges? Yes.


Labor in America is as high if not higher then in the UK. Our businesses have a much higher tax rate then anywhere else in the world. I know, my music publishing company gets hammered all the time. Fodera's are built in a small shop in NYC, a handful of highly skilled artisans trying to craft the great basses they do with perfect consistency. A company like Fodera has to invest years in a worker to get them to be able to do consistent hand driven work to the Fodera standard. A lot of luthiers are the only ones doing the work. So, what do you think your labor would cost if you were doing the near perfection most boutique builders are all by yourself? Yep, you would have to make enough profit that you can actually live off of the 100 or so basses you might make a year. Think about it. In the US poverty level is a family of 4 making around $30K per year. For a boutique builder, in order to just make a personal income of $30K he would have to have total revenue of about $300K. Don't forget, materials cost too, as well as credit lines, shop space, packaging materials, yada yada. So, to make poverty level that is 100 basses at at least $3K. And its not like that is consistent cash flow either. You can't fully bill until its built.

If I put them at your comfort level, say $1K, then he would have to make 300 basses a year to make $30K. That is one bass a day, all by himself. In order to make non-poverty money, he would have to produce 2-4 basses per day, all by himself.

Now, How does that math work for you in your thinking?

[sprocket123]

Yep TomRichards , it s not the luthiers that make Wall Street go wild , but I must say i would like to have a Fodera , an Alembic , a Wal , & the list would go on & on right. It s not because I can t by a Rolls Royce or a Bentley that they have ethical issues of some sort , their are way wrost stuff to me than ethical issues on luthiers as one wrote before , if I don t have the money for it , I don t buy it , just some thoughts in here .

[mcnach]

[quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631']
Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate.

So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified.

Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf .
Am not disagreeing with the fact that these instruments are not brilliant in there own way (glad I got that disclaimer out of the way :-) ) But its just the fact that they charge an extraordinary amount of money for some thing which really is not justified in any other way other than the fact you are buying in to a brand. Tiffany do it all the time with silver, which I know cost nothing compared to the mark up that they make, these “high end” bass luthiers are no different.

the whole problem I have with this is that once you start charging that much you are starting to make musical instruments an elites item, that is a commodity for the better off when in reality it would help every one if a higher calibre of instrument was available to every one and in turn that would help every one become better players.

And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos.
A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price.
B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag

I think the point of this rant is that I want to open the floor to every one to actually speak about this and not be accused of “trolling” to put together there thoughts in a concise manner which can lead to a mutual understanding of people on every side. I know which side I stand on but I would love to hear what other people think that could lead me to understand why and how this has happened in the bass world.
[/quote]


You cannot be serious.
We are talking about a clearly non-essential item. Not food, water, shelter, clothing... but a musical instrument. Not only that, we are talking a particular musical instrument.

A builder can charge as much as he wants to and it would not make any sense to tell him what he *should* charge. How is it unethical to charge X? It's not the materials only, and it's not even the time invested, it's the *knowledge* and ability you pay for, something that was probably acquired over many many years.

If you don't think it offers good value... there are a thousand other brands and models of the same type of instrument to choose from, at all prices and standards.

I would be seriously offended if I were a builder and you came to my shop trying to dictate what I should charge.

[TomRichards]

What one charges has nothing to do with "ethical" or "moral". Is it more ethical to charge $129 for a Chinese bass that the near slave labor gets paid about $5 to make? That to me is actually unethical and immoral. But we let that pass without a sound.

In his century, Stradivarius made instruments for the greatest players and yes, THE WEALTHY. The average guy walking the streets of Verona or Rome didn't even have the opportunity to own one. Same for great painters and sculptors. Why do you think Michaelangelo and Leonardo painted for the wealthy? Because the poor man couldn't keep him alive with food, clothing or shelter.

I personally pay for what I get, and I often pay a little more then I could because I have someone I know do the work. I could get cabinets installed in my kitchen by the hardware chain Home Depot, and it costs about 30% less. But I know I will get general helpers who install cabinets but are not cabinet makers and who will not understand the things to properly install a cabinet or how to handle particular issues that may arise during installation. I have a local cabinet maker, and he uses some standard cabinets and then customizes some to optimize my room and installation. Well worth the extra money.

The truth is, if you look hard and long enough, you can get boutique basses at reasonable prices. The bass pictured in my profile I recently purchased from a small shop, used. The bass is a Brubaker KXB-5 in satin black with a stained maple fingerboard. The bass was sold originally by Kevin Brubaker for $3700. I found it with a small dealer and got it for $1500 cash and a 1993 MIA Fender Jazz Bass Plus (which I had purchased for $475). So, for $1975 I got a boutique bass that originally sold for nearly double that.

Not that you can find that kind of a deal on every boutique bass, but you can on most. You can regularly score Kubicki's for a grand or less, you can find many Spectors for the same, and I have even purchased several Rickenbackers over the past few years in mint condition for less then $1000.

Now, can you buy them new for that? No. But you can own a piece of your dreams for that if you are patient and do your homework.

[Jack]

Essentially if you were right then no one would buy expensive basses and the companies would go bust.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327450310' post='1511631']
Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate.

So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified.

Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf .
Am not disagreeing with the fact that these instruments are not brilliant in there own way (glad I got that disclaimer out of the way :-) ) But its just the fact that they charge an extraordinary amount of money for some thing which really is not justified in any other way other than the fact you are buying in to a brand. Tiffany do it all the time with silver, which I know cost nothing compared to the mark up that they make, these “high end” bass luthiers are no different.

the whole problem I have with this is that once you start charging that much you are starting to make musical instruments an elites item, that is a commodity for the better off when in reality it would help every one if a higher calibre of instrument was available to every one and in turn that would help every one become better players.

And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos.
A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price.
B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag

I think the point of this rant is that I want to open the floor to every one to actually speak about this and not be accused of “trolling” to put together there thoughts in a concise manner which can lead to a mutual understanding of people on every side. I know which side I stand on but I would love to hear what other people think that could lead me to understand why and how this has happened in the bass world.
[/quote]


Perhaps you could tell us their actual profit margins?

Have you thought about salaries? Insurance? Equipment prices? Wood supply (a bit of 5A Walnut can cost a couple of grand just as a slab) Have you even given a single thought to the astronomical rent that Fodera must be paying in their NYC location? Have you split these overheads per bass?

A friend of mine used to build well rgarded pedals. He would quote a price and then he'd get abuse with the usual moan starting with 'the parts would cost only £30 or £50 or whatever'

Part cost does not equal the research needed for the design.

Part cost does not equal the labour.

Why should he charge parts and paint only and then not charge a sensble hourly rate for the work to put it togther?

Why should he even limit himself to minimum wage hourly rate when he has a good product that people want, and are willing to accept his PROFESSIONAL advice on it.


Simple fact is - many people could build an amazing bass if they were willing to put 10 years + into learning the skills needed. 99.9% of those people can't be arsed.

The 0.1% that are not only driven enough to do it, but also go through the huge hassle of bringing a product to market can charge what they damn well feel like.

The potential customers will decide whether the price is too high. And for all the brands you've mentioned - the customers have already decided the price is just fine.

[lojo]

I gather the ethics the original poster is referring to is based on how much these guys should earn

So my question is how much do you think they should earn per hour or per week? Just labour , no plant or premises

It's easy to knock large firms who make large profits on volume business, they could lower the prices, increase wages and still have a good profit, but to state exactly how much a craftsman should earn is a hard call

If the actual figure is higher than you think it should be it doesn't make it unethical, as you choose to use his services or not , unlike paying the water board

Edited March 7, 2012 by lojo

[TomRichards]

I believe the OP just feels it is unethical because of his personal situation. I do not know the OP, but I'm guessing he is among those of us called "working level" or in the US "middle class". Meaning, we may make a decent wage and be able to have all our needs and a few of our wants met, but not an extravagant want like a high end, boutique bass.

I also believe if the OP were to suddenly have a run of fortune in his given profession, and someone were to decry that he was being unethical for being the benefactor of that good fortune, his tune would change.

Anyone can make music. With the software available today you can take the cheapest, crappiest of instruments and make hit records with not too much work So the argument cannot be based on any other thought then the "I don't have, so no one else should have mentality." It is funny how you NEVER hear this argument when it comes to the Apple iPhone. Heck, its just a smart phone, and there are many smartphones in the biz that are about half the price and have as much capability. So then why is it not unethical for Apple to make money and charge $500 US for a phone when others sell for less?

The answer lies in exactly what another poster here said. The iPhone is a want, not a need. You can buy a $20 pay as you go phone here and send all the texts and make all the calls you want. You want to do more things? You have to pay more. You want the ultimate in capability? You pay for it, even if the iPhone itself only costs Apple about $25 to make.

So, for a boutique or high end builder, he charges what the market will bear for his product. Many builders have gone out of business over the years because they may have made great instruments, but no one wanted them or liked the price. Those that have survived and thrived, well, then they are providing the wanted performance at an acceptable price.

Would I personally pay the prices for a Fodera? Maybe, but probably no, because I can get similar capability from other makers who might be less and I at this point prefer not to spend that much. Is Fodera worth every penny they ask? An absolute YES!

[LukeFRC]

flipping heck, is this thread still going?