4 Strings Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327516880' post='1512794'] This. Most people trying to learn tracks don't listen anywhere near close enough or for long enough to an original. When you listen at what I call the 'forensic level', nine times out of ten the bass player is playing something [i]different [/i]to what you thought[i]. [/i]Even on tracks you thought you knew. . [/quote] Amen. Do be honest, in my experience most people 'doing their own take' on a part has been a result of them being too lazy to get the real part right. I think I may have just isolated myself from some in this community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1327521543' post='1512910'] ...people 'doing their own take' on a part has been a result of them being too lazy to get the real part right. [/quote] That or they they're not actually capable of playing it - and just wing it. And I'm not specifically referring to bass players, either. Edited January 25, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jacqueslemac' timestamp='1327515022' post='1512745'] Me too. If I wanted to follow the original I'd join a tribute band. It's my take on the original. Did the original band always play it the same way live? Not unless they had a very high boredom threshold.... [/quote] It might not have been a high boredom threshold, it might merely have been that they were professional musicians playing what was required of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327521995' post='1512925'] That or they they're not actually capable of playing it - and just wing it. And I'm not specifically referring to bass players, either. [/quote] No, it's not only bass players. It's worst when the vocalist starts making up a different melody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I figured out years ago the difference between an artist and a craftsman. As I've become older , fatter , richer more comfortable and more idle I've become far more of the latter than the former , which is what I started out to be. I expect I'm not the only one round here. Anyway What bit of creator rather than reproducer remains in me insists on rolling his own - so do my own lines for covers. Then again - our band doesn;t really do 'covers' as such - we take other peoples well known songs and twist and turn and prat about with them til they make us laugh and hope it has the same effect on the punters. So as a band we roll our own - it's just that we stole the papers and the baccy !! Edited January 25, 2012 by Dr.Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Unless it is a really known riff, I play whatever I feel There are lots of songs where the original were just root / fifth anyway. I tend to pick those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_S Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327516880' post='1512794'] Most people trying to learn tracks don't listen anywhere near close enough or for long enough to an original. When you listen at what I call the 'forensic level', nine times out of ten the bass player is playing something [i]different [/i]to what you thought[i]. [/i]Even on tracks you thought you knew. [/quote] ...therefore, if most musicians who 'know' a song don't even know it, the average punter who knows some of the words to the chorus and therefore 'knows' and enjoys the song isn't going to care one way or the other how I choose to approximate the bassline, because as far as they're concerned I'll be playing the song! What about when your fellow muso types who notice the variations on said theme say that your take on a track is better than the original, then? Should you take it as a backhanded insult because your part wasn't exactly as good as the original? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1327522401' post='1512936'] So as a band we roll our own - it's just that we stole the papers and the baccy! [/quote] You bloody give those back right now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think it's great to really nail a part, getting the fine detail of a good line teaches me so much about another player's style and improves my own playing. BUT having done that, on a gig I'd do my own thing! I can't ever see myself playing slavish covers, may as well just put the record on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327511766' post='1512645'] If you want to be 'artistic' and 'express yourself', join an originals band and knock yourself out! That is all. [/quote] As I've been in originals, it's kind of the done thing to do a cover or two, usually to fill set time and to hopefully grab the audience's attention. when I've done this the song has usually been boring so I will write my own, or add a fill or two. I covered teenage dirt bag in one band and followed the guitar line rather than the bass. If I was to cover RATM of RHCP I'd stick to the original as much as possible. These are usually known for the bass just as much as the guitar or melody so I'd rather not change it. If it's a pop song majority of people would recognise the song and be happy as long as the melody wass there. I agree though that if it's a covers band or tribute act that it should be original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Ed_S' timestamp='1327522551' post='1512941'] What about when your fellow muso types... ...say that your take on a track is better than the original, then? [/quote] None of my fellow muso types have [i]ever[/i] said my take on a track is better than the original. Which of course is a compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1327522792' post='1512949'] I think it's great to really nail a part, getting the fine detail of a good line teaches me so much about another player's style and improves my own playing. BUT having done that, on a gig I'd do my own thing! I can't ever see myself playing slavish covers, [b]may as well just put the record on[/b]. [/quote] Exactly, keep music live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1327522401' post='1512936'] I figured out years ago the difference between an artist and a craftsman. As I've become older , fatter , richer more comfortable and more idle I've become far more of the latter than the former , which is what I started out to be. I expect I'm not the only one round here. Anyway What bit of creator rather than reproducer remains in me insists on rolling his own - so do my own lines for covers. Then again - our band doesn;t really do 'covers' as such - we take other peoples well known songs and twist and turn and prat about with them til they make us laugh and hope it has the same effect on the punters. So as a band we roll our own - it's just that we stole the papers and the baccy !! [/quote] I'm all for that - playing an old song in your own new way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Ed_S' timestamp='1327522551' post='1512941'] ...What about when your fellow muso types who notice the variations on said theme say that your take on a track is better than the original, then? ... [/quote] I'll tell them that music is not a competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacqueslemac Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1327522214' post='1512929'] It might not have been a high boredom threshold, it might merely have been that they were professional musicians playing what was required of them. [/quote] You could be right, but I only have a few recordings of the same song by the same band playing it live at different times and each one is a bit different. I wonder if anyone really notices on the night, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Jacqueslemac' timestamp='1327524009' post='1512971'] You could be right, but I only have a few recordings of the same song by the same band playing it live at different times and each one is a bit different. I wonder if anyone really notices on the night, though? [/quote] Yes, but it is likely to be a bit different and not very often is it going to be a totally different line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftyhook Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Maybe it would be a band decision?. In my earlier live days I would just go off and do my own thing(Depeche Mode song on my fretless with sliding harmonics!) - only to get daggers from certain band members. Generally guitarists mind you, who as we all know, fully deserve all of the limelight and rights to solos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bam Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) To me it depends on: 1) the song - some songs MUST have that iconic line copied. Some (the more busier lines) are just a version of the original with the main parts and a bit of what works for you. 2) the band youre in - if youre a basic set up and youre copying a band that has x2 guitars, keyboards, backing vocals etc you may have to slightly amend the bassline to fill any 'gaps' or 'space' left by not having those instruments in your set up. 3) your drummer. Depends if between you both you copy the original version spot on. ie if he/she plays different then you may have to. For example, a couple of recent covers we did: Never Forget You - The Noisettes: Great line, fairly easy to get spot on and sounds great - copied that 100% as the record. Sweet Child O Mine - Guns n Roses - Kept to the majority of the main notes, but changed the little fills and frills to fit in with our set up and way of playing, rather than exactly as the record. Superstition - Stevie Wonder/Stevie Ray Vaughan - Theres so much artistic licence in there without losing the essence of the song that we just did our own thing, and it still is Superstition, despite us not playing much like the record (if that makes sense). Edited January 25, 2012 by la bam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If I specifically go out to watch a band then I expect to be entertained. If I wanted to hear an exact copy of an original then I'd have stayed at home and listened to the CD. I find it interesting to hear 'new takes' on familiar tunes, sometimes they work a treat, and sometimes they don't, but isn't learning how to recognise that difference what makes us better musicians..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Exactly my thoughts. There are a lot of bands who seem to have to fill every space with a fill. Less is more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) If the bass line is the bit in the song that people know, play it. If not, do your own thing! Part of going to see a live act is that you want to see how that group works together and their musical chemistry. That might mean seeing how they compose new material or cover classics, but the point is to see how the individual musicians handle their craft as musicians and performers and bring their individuality to the music. If punters can't appreciate musicianship and want to hear it exactly like the record, they should go and see a tribute band or sit in the house in the dark and listen to the recording IMO. Edited January 25, 2012 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1327525765' post='1513005'] If I specifically go out to watch a band then I expect to be entertained. If I wanted to hear an exact copy of an original then I'd have stayed at home and listened to the CD. I find it interesting to hear 'new takes' on familiar tunes, sometimes they work a treat, and sometimes they don't, but isn't learning how to recognise that difference what makes us better musicians..? [/quote] Exactly! Even if it is the original band - I saw 10cc a couple of years ago - brilliant - my on;y complain was that it was too much like the CD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1327510203' post='1512617'] Sorry, but in my experience from working with touringbands this is incorrect. Great (and even halfway decent) originals bands know exactly what they're going to play and have rehearsed it to death. Even the between song banter is the same each night and is scripted and rehearsed. Ad-libbing simply leaves too much room for things to go wrong. [/quote] That's an interesting observation. I suspect it's a common thing in all branches of show business and separates the real pros from the rest. Many years ago a company I worked for arranged an internal 'conference' and hired Michael Barratt (of BBC 'Nationwide fame) to compere the whole thing. I was involved in setting up demo system that my boss was going to be interviewed about so I was present during the rehearsals. My boss was happy to just be asked any old question and ad lib the whole thing but Barratt was insistent about agreeing the questions, understanding the answers and, yes, even scripting some jokes. When I was in the audience for the main 'show' I could see the whole thing played out exactly word-for-word by Barrett, right down to the apparently off-the-cuff jokes, and he also maintained the timing of everything perfectly. His 'effortless' chairing of the whole event was actually a result of real attention to detail during the rehearsals. it was an interesting thing to witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1327529125' post='1513064'] Exactly! Even if it is the original band - I saw 10cc a couple of years ago - brilliant - my on;y complain was that it was too much like the CD! [/quote] Oooh - I like 10cc. Great musicians and incredibly witty lyrics. They've come back from the dead so many times that if Captain Scarlet was a musician then that's the band he'd be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1327529176' post='1513067'] ... His 'effortless' chairing of the whole event was actually a result of real attention to detail during the rehearsals. it was an interesting thing to witness. [/quote] Yes, effortlessness is almost always the result of a great deal of earlier effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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