Valuing Bassists on Stupid Criteria

[skej21]

I accept defeat.

This is clearly just another thread that will continue to descend into cyclic arguments about the conflicting philosophies of bass playing.

I'm off to actually play the bass instead... Let's just hope it's tasteful playing

Edited January 26, 2012 by skej21

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1327536022' post='1513209']
There are two separate issues here.

One is that good and bad taste are highly subjective, so there can be no consensus.

[b]Second is that many musicians are too insecure so that the music they produce gets blanded out to the point where it's only distinguishable features are the quantifiable elements like technique.[/b]
[/quote]

Absolute nonsense.

[LawrenceH]

Hmm, sometimes I do think 'taste' is used as a euphemism for 'lacking sense of fun'.
Personally, I have impeccable taste. I just don't bother using it very often

[Jayben]

My 2p... A bass player in my opinion should intimately know the purpose of a song, and indeed the kind of energy the song is trying to create, and therefore support the creation of the desired energy with appropriate choices of rhythms, notes and the like.

As for taste/technique.. Taste is entirely subjective, but there's no denying that the 14YO kid on youtube doing triplet sweeping in 12/8 at 300 BPM is cold and clinical.

[oldslapper]

Serve the song.........does the bass line serve the song?

I would take a hazardous guess that, no matter how lauded a bass player me be here or any other bass site, there will be a song they have played on where their bass playing hasn't served the song.....even (insert your name here).

Can't stand Level 42, but their bass player seems to serve their songs with his approach.....mostly?
Can't stand U2, but their man on bass seems to do the same, serve the song that is.......mostly?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they appear to have slightly different techniques from one another.

Whatever..........

[cheddatom]

My best acheivement in terms of bass playing is a bassline I wrote a couple of months ago - one note played in a slightly unusual rythm. This is a perfect example I think. I've tried explaining why I love this bassline so much to non-musicians and they just don't get it. Several people have even said they can't hear the bassline! Bassists would deffinitely get it, and hopefully appreciate the "taste" of it, even though it demonstrates no technical ability what so ever and will never stand out to non-musicians.

[Mykesbass]

And there I was hoping this thread was going to be about judging drummers on their choice of hat, their ability to throw some funky shapes without smacking the singer with their headstock, or even the colour of their silk gloves

[leftyhook]

I've been through the Mark King, Billy Sheehan, Victor Wooten etc phases when it comes to admiration.

But, as Don Henley put it, "After the boys of Summer have gone.."

I go back to Andy Fraser, and Pino. And I always will.

Edited January 26, 2012 by leftyhook

[leftyhook]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1327567892' post='1513338']
Serve the song.........does the bass line serve the song?

I would take a hazardous guess that, no matter how lauded a bass player me be here or any other bass site, there will be a song they have played on where their bass playing hasn't served the song.....even (insert your name here).

Can't stand Level 42, but their bass player seems to serve their songs with his approach.....mostly?
Can't stand U2, but their man on bass seems to do the same, serve the song that is.......mostly?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they appear to have slightly different techniques from one another.

Whatever..........
[/quote]
Mark King drives the song with his face up agains the windscreen, while Adam Clayton simply, and admirably; supports it.

BTW one of may favourite songs to play live is Duffy's 'Mercy'. Muted strings, thumb and first finger plucks..so simple, but the muting accentuates the importance of keeping it tighter than tight. Love it.

Edited January 26, 2012 by leftyhook

[oldslapper]

[quote name='leftyhook' timestamp='1327571603' post='1513407']

Mark King drives the song with his face up agains the windscreen, while Adam Clayton simply, and admirably; supports it.

BTW one of may favourite songs to play live is Duffy's 'Mercy'. Muted strings, thumb and first finger plucks..so simple, but the muting accentuates the importance of keeping it tighter than tight. Love it.
[/quote]

Indeed, nice and contextual to the song and style of arrangement/ production.

Getting back to Nigel's question, is what the level 42's bass player is playing, with his face up against the screen driving the song, tasteful and contextual to the songs? Likewise mr U2?
I have no liking for either bands material, but on the whole IMUO, I would suggest that they are both tasteful as they appear to be contextual.

I often have to put aside personal taste, or predjudice, in order to appreciate a bass part that fits the song.

But then again, I have no taste and have too many predjudices.

[mcgraham]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1327567892' post='1513338']Serve the song.........does the bass line serve the song?[/quote]

I agree. I think this is a good way to identify a good bassist. It doesn't matter whether we're flashy or not, if whatever we play serves a purpose in the song (e.g. making people want to move, emphasising another instrument, creating space when it drops out, raising the energy of the piece using fills as opposed to something else, etc) whatever that purpose might be then you've got some way to contextualise whether they are a good bassist. Sure, it's open to interpretation as to how perfect/not perfect it is, or even whether you like it or not, but if the bassist is adding to the song in a way you like, then that makes them a good bassist [i]to you[/i].

If you put the boot on the other foot, and you are auditioning for a gig, you therefore need to know what that niche you would be filling in that gig, e.g. rock solid bass that doesn't stand out? a nigel clutterbuck tribute band? something in between?. What is the band/group trying to market themselves as? If you can work that out, then even you can work out how you stack up to their goals/targets. The best bassists are those that can bring their own style but from a variety of different angles to a variety of different genres, and can ultimately fill whatever niche they are asked to step into.

I agree with you silddx, we are often judged on the wrong attributes, but I'd take it as a challenge to work hard at the above (I know you do some of that already) and also take as a comfort that it doesn't matter how hard you work, some people will love you and some people won't, and there's very little you can do *sometimes* to predict that or change it.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='leftyhook' timestamp='1327571603' post='1513407']
[u][i][b]Mark King drives the song with his face up agains the windscreen[/b][/i][/u], while Adam Clayton simply, and admirably; supports it.

BTW one of may favourite songs to play live is Duffy's 'Mercy'. Muted strings, thumb and first finger plucks..so simple, but the muting accentuates the importance of keeping it tighter than tight. Love it.
[/quote]

Not a Mark King fan meself, but thats really well put. Just picture it in my head is enough.

[Nibody]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327530724' post='1513100']
By god I see a lot of this on here. It seems many of us judge the quality of musicians by their chops. I have seen plenty of bassists with great chops, and the articulation and expression of a sedated sloth.

Why is this? Are we so deaf to beautifully nuanced simplicity? Are we only focused on the bland displays of the mechanics, demonstrating years of study and practice? Yes yes, some of us vindicate ourselves by slagging off Nigel Clutterbuck, and exalting James Jamerson, and then post a video of 'An Amazing Bass Solo' featuring, you guessed it, some SLAP, supposedly funky, almost always about as interesting as a sheet of toilet paper and with less texture.

Why can't we value TASTE over technique? Is it because we think it requires no tangible effort?
[/quote]

Definately +1

[stef030]

whilst I enjoy most of the players in other posts,
and a being a player for close to mmm years,can do most things,
for me its not alway what you play but what you dont,
we can all noodle about at 1000 notes a minute,slap a little and groove
with the rest,
but for me it all comes down to feel.and space


cheers
stef

[MusicJunkie]

IT's all about the groove! Then,I say that as a bass player..

[Low End Bee]

I see myself as a band member first, then a songwriter and finally a bass player. Other people may see themeselves differently and that's fine.
If you like listening to solo bass players then I agree technique and chops are very important. I don't.
I went through a little phase, that I'll admit was influenced by spending too much time on Basschat, of trying to play bits that I thought might impress other bass players. Then I realised it's not worth playing to impress a couple of people who probably wouldn't find it impressive anyway and cocking up a song. I'll play 3 minutes of roots now if I feel it's appropriate. It's got to be all about the song and the performance for me. That's what impresses me in other bands.

[Low End Bee]

PS. To most of the audience your just a bloke/bird with a big guitar anyway

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1327579140' post='1513566']
I'll play 3 minutes of roots now if I feel it's appropriate. It's got to be all about the song and the performance for me. That's what impresses me in other bands.
[/quote]

I'm definately in agreement. One of my favourite basslines is "with or without you" by U2. Whether it's technically amazing or not is one thing but sometimes a really simple basslines makes all the other aspects of the song sit really well.

[4000]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1327567892' post='1513338']
Serve the song.........does the bass line serve the song?

I would take a hazardous guess that, no matter how lauded a bass player me be here or any other bass site, there will be a song they have played on where their bass playing hasn't served the song.....even (insert your name here).

Can't stand Level 42, but their bass player seems to serve their songs with his approach.....mostly?
Can't stand U2, but their man on bass seems to do the same, serve the song that is.......mostly?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they appear to have slightly different techniques from one another.

Whatever..........


[/quote]

This.

The bassists I love range from guys like Cliff Williams & Jah Wobble through John McVie and Rutger Gunnarson through Lemmy and JJB through Chris Squire and the Ox through Stanley Clarke, Matt Garrison and Richard Bona. I like the players that I like, simple as. As someone else said, it's about the notes they choose and the sound they make (and this is very important) within the context of the music they're playing. Chris Squire, in the context of the music he plays, is arguably my favourite player, but I reckon he'd have sucked big time in Chic (I love Bernard too FWIW).

The above examples or Mark King and Adam Clayton are very good ones. I think they're both great. What I find irritating is that Mark King gets stick for playing too much / being slaptastic and Adam Clayton gets stick for playing too little, as if there has to be some sort of middle ground of note frequency that is optimimum. When it comes to the perfect part, there is no right or wrong, only what is your preference (or arguably the consensus preference) within the music. Harrison famously thought McCartney was too busy, as I believe did Elvis Costello with Bruce Thomas. Are they? You decide.

As an aside, arguably my favourite recorded live performance ever is "The Meeting of the Spirits" (McLaughlin / De Lucia / Coryell). But the reason I love it so much is not the technique on show, amazing though it is, but because to me (YMMV) it is emotionally transcendant. In that performance McLaughlin and De Lucia (poor Larry!) are on another plane entirely. I don't sit there and watch it and think "wow, that (insert mode of choice) scale was so fast"; the music and playing make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. They take me to another place. My point is that technique can be exceptional (and exceptionally busy!) and still create something that is emotionally moving. Of course whether or not it will be moving to everyone is a different thing entirely. One man's meat etc.

FWIW I don't believe there's such a thing as actual good or bad taste. There are too many issues involved in what defines it; cultural, personal etc.

And now I'm stopping typing because it hurts!

[musophilr]

Bass players aren't alone in this. Guitarists are measured by the size of their widdle, not by the musicality of their playing. Perhaps this is because the size or speed of widdle is easier to quantify than "musicality". I guess drummers do it too: I remember the title of a spiel in Melody Maker in which Ringo explained "why I don't want to play like Buddy Rich". Given that Ringo contributed what was just right to the Beatles without needing Buddy's technique, it was probably fair comment.

[SteveK]

Nigel, you seem to be asking, "Why doesn't everybody dig what I dig? Why doesn't everybody hate what I hate?"

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327530724' post='1513100']
Are we so deaf to [b]beautifully nuanced simplicity[/b]? [/quote]I read those 3 words, and Sade springs to mind. You may love listening to Sade... personally, I would rather rub salt in my eyes (Of course, you may not like Sade either, but you get my point).


[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327530724' post='1513100']
By god I see a lot of this on here. It seems many of us judge the quality of musicians by their chops. [/quote]I guess your referring to some clips that you don't rate but others do... I haven't seen them. But It's perfectly normal for a young developing musician to be impressed with a display of "technical stuff©" It's part of motivation, learning and developing as a musician.

One thing I really take issue with is:[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327533394' post='1513151']
I think that's why non-musicians seem to appreciate music so much more than most of us musicians do.
[/quote]That's a helluva generalisation, which IMV is simply not true. If the guys you play with don't appreciate music more than yer average "non-musician", then you're playing with the wrong guys.

[peteb]

Can we just challenge this idea that non-musicians do not appreciate technical ability!

Punters are generally very impressed by displays of musical virtuosity as long as it is presented in an entertaining way and they are not constantly beaten over the head with it!

[originalfunkbrother]

Its funny but amazing how we all have different tastes as to bass players and their styles.

[phil625sxc]

go on then, I'll bite.... ;-)

On first reading the OP seemed to be a reverse musical snobbery kind of question, the kind that are mostly posted by players whose own techniques are not that hot...but I may have it wrong.

Are you implying that music that is easy to play is superior or preferable to that which is technically demanding ?

Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick

[cheddatom]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1327585907' post='1513762']
Can we just challenge this idea that non-musicians do not appreciate technical ability!

Punters are generally very impressed by displays of musical virtuosity as long as it is presented in an entertaining way and they are not constantly beaten over the head with it!
[/quote]

yes, but it's the "tasteful" playing they won't appeciate

I played a gig with an amazing drummer recently, and we kept on reminding him to absolutely let loose at the gig, really almost over-play. He totally did and i've never heard so many positive comments from non musicians about a drummer.