Chuck Rainey - medical costs

[peteb]

The trouble is that being a musician is quite an uncertain profession at the best of times and I would imagine that it would be considered a 'high risk' and therefore attract high premiums. Therefore, many musicians (even pretty successful ones) find that they do not have enough insurance when they need it.

The guy who played lead guitar on Billie Jean (forget his name but a well paid session player on a massive hit on the bestselling album of all time) died from a heart attack because he was turned away from one hospital as he didn't have insurance at the time and didn't make it to a hospital that would take him. Phil Kennemore (the bassist in Y&T and a lovely bloke who I had the pleasure of meeting) died from cancer leaving his wife pretty much penniless as the insurance that he did have didn't cover his treatment.

What some of the little tory boys here don't realise is that some of these guys were not in 'regular' employment with the medical schemes and reasonably low premiums that most office workers would enjoy and the uneven nature of their work would make it difficult to maintain a decent level of cover, even if, at times, they may have paid a out a fortune in tax (depending on the state that they lived in)!

As bad as the NHS is becoming these days, at least that safety net still exists for those who do not fit the norms of employment....

Edited January 30, 2012 by peteb

[kevin_lindsay]

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/kevin_lindsay/b5022cae.jpg[/IMG]

This is a sentiment I think many need to think about. Saying "f*** you!" to someone after life has hit them hard is something I find appalling.

Edited January 30, 2012 by kevin_lindsay

[risingson]

I actually think I owe quite a lot to Chuck Rainey. I've spent pretty much my whole life listening to him, being inspired by him, both directly as a bass player and by the music that he has contributed to. He's not only been a tremendous musician that enjoy listening to, but he's also been an absolutely huge influence on my development as a bass player. In fact, I would directly credit him for making me a better musician. And as a full time working musician, i.e. someone that makes their money solely from the music I perform, that means that financial aid is quite literally the least I can do for an old man who has sadly been taken ill and is no longer able to play music and make money for himself. I'm very much indebted to him. And there are some truly miserable people on this site.

Edited January 30, 2012 by risingson

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1327951567' post='1519401']
I actually think I owe quite a lot to Chuck Rainey. I've spent pretty much my whole life listening to him, being inspired by him, both directly as a bass player and by the music that he has contributed to. He's not only been a tremendous musician that enjoy listening to, but he's also been an absolutely huge influence on my development as a bass player. In fact, I would directly credit him for making me a better musician. And as a full time working musician, i.e. someone that makes their money solely from the music I perform, that means that financial aid is quite literally the least I can do for an old man who has sadly been taken ill and is no longer able to play music and make money for himself. I'm very much indebted to him. And there are some truly miserable people on this site.
[/quote]
I would have to agree with this post. I have spent the last 15 years playing his amazing bass lines.

[chardbass]

I donated 20 dollars earlier today.
I just felt like it. I like Chuck Rainey and I like Ed Friedland.
(I also like Janek Gwizdala- he used to post on here but soon disappeared because of the kind of negativity which seems to prevail at times.)

Merry Christmas.

[doctor_of_the_bass]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1327948371' post='1519304']
The trouble is that being a musician is quite an uncertain profession at the best of times and I would imagine that it would be considered a 'high risk' and therefore attract high premiums. Therefore, many musicians (even pretty successful ones) find that they do not have enough insurance when they need it.

The guy who played lead guitar on Billie Jean (forget his name but a well paid session player on a massive hit on the bestselling album of all time) died from a heart attack because he was turned away from one hospital as he didn't have insurance at the time and didn't make it to a hospital that would take him. Phil Kennemore (the bassist in Y&T and a lovely bloke who I had the pleasure of meeting) died from cancer leaving his wife pretty much penniless as the insurance that he did have didn't cover his treatment.

What some of the little tory boys here don't realise is that some of these guys were not in 'regular' employment with the medical schemes and reasonably low premiums that most office workers would enjoy and the uneven nature of their work would make it difficult to maintain a decent level of cover, even if, at times, they may have paid a out a fortune in tax (depending on the state that they lived in)!

As bad as the NHS is becoming these days, at least that safety net still exists for those who do not fit the norms of employment....
[/quote]

Nail. Head. The. On. Hit. The. !

[Russ]

It sickens me to my stomach that people in the US have to resort to this sort of thing to pay medical bills. We might bitch about it a lot, but the UK is so lucky to have something like the NHS. What's more, nobody in the UK really understands quite how f**ked the American system is. As a Brit in the US, let me spell it out for you.

In the US, even if you're pension age, like Chuck Rainey, you still have to have medical insurance. There is a government-administered scheme for OAPs called Medicare, but it doesn't cover much in the way of treatment, has very limited coverage for prescriptions (only the basic generic stuff that comes under what's called "Medicare Part D") and practically no coverage for what the Americans call "major medical" - ie, hospital visits and treatment for chronic conditions. What's more, if you've been ill before, there's a very good chance the insurance company will rack up your premiums to eyewatering levels, and, even then, there's the possibility that they'll deny your insurance claim, at which point you're responsible for the entire cost. Many, many people go bankrupt in the US from not being able to pay medical bills.

The cost of insurance is also outrageous - in the UK, for those of us who are lucky enough to get private health insurance like BUPA as a job perk, it might cost you maybe £200 a month to cover your family. In the US, if you want to cover your family (say, two adults and two kids), you could be talking up to $2000 a month (or even more if you or any member of your family has a pre-existing condition). And then you still have to pay a "co-pay" to go to the doctor (anything from $25 to $100). If you get your insurance through your employer, it's not quite as expensive as the employer pays towards it, and the employer gets a discount for having multiple people on their policy. However, if you're self-employed (as most professional musicians are), you don't get to take advantage of these group discounts and you have to pay the full whack.

Most people in the UK can't even begin to comprehend these sorts of numbers when it comes to healthcare - we're all used to just going to the doctor. I'd never seen a medical bill in my life until I moved to the US. I broke my ankle about a year ago, and, despite having health insurance, I couldn't get it fixed thanks to a loophole that meant that the insurance company didn't have to pay for the operation. So now I have a misaligned ankle joint that causes me a fair amount of discomfort.

Andrew Lansley and David Cameron want a system like this for the UK. Be very, very afraid.

[noelk27]

[quote name='Russ' timestamp='1327983595' post='1519881']It sickens me ...[/quote]

Your attention seems to be solely focused on the cost of healthcare in the US, but not also on the earning potential and taxation system there. Over his professional life, Mr Rainey has been taxed at a lower level than self-employed people in the UK, and has been entitled to a higher level of deductibles. Without getting into the numbers in detail, for every dollar Mr Rainey has earned he has had between 10 and 15 per cent more in his pocket than those of us in the UK. Here, those of us who operate self-employed contribute in terms of class 2 and class 4 national insurance, as well as through the sums gathered in general taxation. It's also the case, without the backup of an employer, have to make provision for those scenarios which may/will arise, such as absence from work due to illness of other events. For someone self-employed in the UK, it is sensible to carry both private health cover (to expedite the time in which healthcare services can be accessed) and various insurances (to cover for loss of income), to reduce the impact that any absence from working can have, and that in addition to the cost of building up a fund for retirement. My experience tends to be that there are those people who live their lives thinking "it'll never happen to me" and those who live their lives thinking "what if?". If Mr Rainey, living and working in the wealthiest nation in the world, with the level of opportunity available to him, and the greater level of wealth left in his pocket after his federal government has taken its share in taxation, has either made no or inadequate provision for the "what if" then his predicament is his own cross to bear. He's had a lifetime of opportunity to make provision for this moment, and should be in a position to support himself without resort to internet begging. By contributing to Mr Rainey, all that you are doing is sending out a message to others, that it is all fine and well not to make provision for the future, that someone will come along and hand you the finance you need, when you need it, encouraging more and more people to labour under the misapprehension that, not matter what, no matter what they do, no matter how they live their life, no matter how little provision they make for their future, someone else will come along and pay for everything they want and/or need.

Edited January 31, 2012 by noelk27

[peteb]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1328014635' post='1520248']


Your attention seems to be solely focused on the cost of healthcare in the US, but not also on the earning potential and taxation system there. Over his professional life, Mr Rainey has been taxed at a lower level than self-employed people in the UK, and has been entitled to a higher level of deductibles. Without getting into the numbers in detail, for every dollar Mr Rainey has earned he has had between 10 and 15 per cent more in his pocket than those of us in the UK. Here, those of us who operate self-employed contribute in terms of class 2 and class 4 national insurance, as well as through the sums gathered in general taxation. It's also the case, without the backup of an employer, have to make provision for those scenarios which may/will arise, such as absence from work due to illness of other events. For someone self-employed in the UK, it is sensible to carry both private health cover (to expedite the time in which healthcare services can be accessed) and various insurances (to cover for loss of income), to reduce the impact that any absence from working can have, and that in addition to the cost of building up a fund for retirement. My experience tends to be that there are those people who live their lives thinking "it'll never happen to me" and those who live their lives thinking "what if?". If Mr Rainey, living and working in the wealthiest nation in the world, with the level of opportunity available to him, and the greater level of wealth left in his pocket after his federal government has taken its share in taxation, has either made no or inadequate provision for the "what if" then his predicament is his own cross to bear. He's had a lifetime of opportunity to make provision for this moment, and should be in a position to support himself without resort to internet begging. By contributing to Mr Rainey, all that you are doing is sending out a message to others, that it is all fine and well not to make provision for the future, that someone will come along and hand you the finance you need, when you need it, encouraging more and more people to labour under the misapprehension that, not matter what, no matter what they do, no matter how they live their life, no matter how little provision they make for their future, someone else will come along and pay for everything they want and/or need.
[/quote]
I can only assume that you haven't read the above posts on how difficult it is for people in such an unpredictable profession as Mr Rainey to afford and maintain sufficient medical insurance, nor the post on the prohibitant costs involved or the paradox of an overtly Christian society not taking care of those in need

[Coilte]

@noelk27 :

Notwithstanding the facts that you state above, do you not think that people might still like to donate a small amount to help an elderly, sick fellow bassist in his hour of need, regardless of the rights and wrongs of what he did, did not, or should have done ? Some here have given their reasons (valid IMO ) for donating, you have given yours for not doing so. So what if it sends out the wrong message ? People are entitled to make their own minds up on where their money goes.

[Musicman20]

Great player, no doubt about it. Massive shame that he is ill, I completely agree. I wish him the best of health.

I am in no financial place to help others Im afraid. I can barely afford to save to move/buy a car now my girlfriend has been made redundant.

It's ok for those who are in safe, well paid jobs to look down and think 'well thats not very charitable', but when things get as bad as they in this country, (and this is the WORST I've ever seen it) you have to look after yourself and your family.

As much as I appreciate the US system isn't very helpful, and makes our NHS look fantastic, I can't really comment on the 'oh, he's a musician' posts. That was his choice. If you are a paid musician, just be thankful that there is still a job for you doing something that some of us can only spend a few hours on a week! The majority of us don't have the privilege or being self employed to play music. Let's face it, that is an amazing way to live life, but I personally didn't chose it because I want a more stable career.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Musicman20

[Russ]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1328014635' post='1520248']
Your attention seems to be solely focused on the cost of healthcare in the US, but not also on the earning potential and taxation system there. Over his professional life, Mr Rainey has been taxed at a lower level than self-employed people in the UK, and has been entitled to a higher level of deductibles. Without getting into the numbers in detail, for every dollar Mr Rainey has earned he has had between 10 and 15 per cent more in his pocket than those of us in the UK. Here, those of us who operate self-employed contribute in terms of class 2 and class 4 national insurance, as well as through the sums gathered in general taxation. It's also the case, without the backup of an employer, have to make provision for those scenarios which may/will arise, such as absence from work due to illness of other events. For someone self-employed in the UK, it is sensible to carry both private health cover (to expedite the time in which healthcare services can be accessed) and various insurances (to cover for loss of income), to reduce the impact that any absence from working can have, and that in addition to the cost of building up a fund for retirement. My experience tends to be that there are those people who live their lives thinking "it'll never happen to me" and those who live their lives thinking "what if?". If Mr Rainey, living and working in the wealthiest nation in the world, with the level of opportunity available to him, and the greater level of wealth left in his pocket after his federal government has taken its share in taxation, has either made no or inadequate provision for the "what if" then his predicament is his own cross to bear. He's had a lifetime of opportunity to make provision for this moment, and should be in a position to support himself without resort to internet begging. By contributing to Mr Rainey, all that you are doing is sending out a message to others, that it is all fine and well not to make provision for the future, that someone will come along and hand you the finance you need, when you need it, encouraging more and more people to labour under the misapprehension that, not matter what, no matter what they do, no matter how they live their life, no matter how little provision they make for their future, someone else will come along and pay for everything they want and/or need.
[/quote]

Regarding the taxation situation, you're wrong. Firstly, the tax burden in the US isn't, as most people believe, less than the UK. In addition to federal income tax, there's state income tax (which varies depending on the state, and you may have to pay more than one if you live in one state and work in another) and social security (which covers a contribution to a small state pension, Medicaid and unemployment benefits). The real killer in the US though is property tax - assuming you own a home, your property tax (which covers local state expenditure and schools) can cost thousands a year - an order of magnitude more than your average Brit pays in council tax. What's more, if you don't pay it, the state can put your house up for tax sale, which doesn't happen in the UK. Add all this together, and your average American's tax burden is actually higher than your average Brit's, and that's not factoring in health insurance, which, as I said before, is prohibitively expensive if you're self-employed, and especially so if you're old. This is why you get octogenarian greeters sitting by the door at Wal-Mart - they're working there to get health insurance. Some things are cheaper (petrol, sales tax) but, when a loaf of (nasty, gritty, sweetened) bread costs $3-4 instead of 80p at Tescos, and an average American car gets ~20mpg and Americans have to do a lot more driving, you can see you're not really saving any money.

Also, regarding earning potential, you're also wrong, especially in recent years. Outside the major metropolitan areas, wages are very low, even for musicians, with work becoming increasingly thin on the ground in this era of DJs. The minimum wage is pathetic, many workers only survive because of tips, and, franky, in Chuck Rainey's situation, where his work has touched many people's lives, he's in the fortunate position of being able to have people to ask for help, which must take a huge swallowing of pride. And it's not like he can go out and get a greeter job at Wal-Mart to get insurance - he now has a pre-existing condition which will preclude him from coverage.

Basically, you're under the misapprehension that it's actually possible to prepare for all eventualities. It's not. Especially in the US, with the healthcare and taxation situation. A health insurance company can come along and cancel your policy retroactively, even if you've had a procedure you were supposed to be covered for (look up "recission"). Obama's health reforms are going to go some way towards helping this situation somewhat, but most of the provisions don't kick in until 2016. You also have to realise that the Democrats in the US, on the policital spectrum, are actually somewhat to the right of the Tories in the UK, despite supposedly being the left-wing party. The political centre in the US is very much skewed to the right, mostly thanks to all the anti-communist stuff that everyone was subjected to during the Cold War.

And, finally, have a heart. This is a well-respected musician whose work has affected millions who's fallen on hard times and is looking for a little help. Chances are you've heard his playing on the radio regularly and not known that it was him. The curse of the bass player, I guess.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Russ

[lowdown]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1328014635' post='1520248']
Here, those of us who operate self-employed contribute in terms of class 2 and class 4 national insurance
[/quote]

And sometime Class 1 stopped.

I have donated to CR [along with many others]
And if it sends out the wrong message [to you] so what ?
My choice, simple really.


[i]Self Employed Musician[/i]
[i]Garry[/i]

[JAUQO III-X]

Chuck likes to work and he's a very social person and he's incredibly giving of his time. For him to not work is very painful, Before Chuck's current health situation he had recently returned from Japan and before that he was working on a regular.

So it's not like he has not been taking care of his financial business. Things happen and no matter how much a musician takes care of their finances to have a decent living or retirement, one never knows what health/financial mishaps can come up.

[gjones]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1327888543' post='1518423']
Personally, I'm a bit perplexed. He's self-employed, and has lived his life in a field where self-employment is the norm. It was for him to make relevant provision for his old age and/or ill health. If anything, it's a salutary lesson to all those who will not have sufficient pension to fall back on in retirement and also the necessity to maintain appropriate insurance and assurance. His appeal, though emotional, is little more than begging, and should not be promoted here.
[/quote]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1327930681' post='1518914']
He is a US citizen, and has spent his adult life living and working there. He, as any other US citizen, knows how the healthcare system in his own country works, and the insurances he would need to carry being self-emplyed. There is no perhaps about the situation. But, as you rightly say, he had a choice, and his choice was to make no, or inadequate, provision for the situation which he has encountered. As a consequence, he must now live with the outcome, an outcome made from his own choices. As for this thread, highlighting his appeal, it should be in off topic, even applying the most charitable of definitions of subject-matter.
[/quote]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1328014635' post='1520248']
Your attention seems to be solely focused on the cost of healthcare in the US, but not also on the earning potential and taxation system there. Over his professional life, Mr Rainey has been taxed at a lower level than self-employed people in the UK, and has been entitled to a higher level of deductibles. Without getting into the numbers in detail, for every dollar Mr Rainey has earned he has had between 10 and 15 per cent more in his pocket than those of us in the UK. Here, those of us who operate self-employed contribute in terms of class 2 and class 4 national insurance, as well as through the sums gathered in general taxation. It's also the case, without the backup of an employer, have to make provision for those scenarios which may/will arise, such as absence from work due to illness of other events. For someone self-employed in the UK, it is sensible to carry both private health cover (to expedite the time in which healthcare services can be accessed) and various insurances (to cover for loss of income), to reduce the impact that any absence from working can have, and that in addition to the cost of building up a fund for retirement. My experience tends to be that there are those people who live their lives thinking "it'll never happen to me" and those who live their lives thinking "what if?". If Mr Rainey, living and working in the wealthiest nation in the world, with the level of opportunity available to him, and the greater level of wealth left in his pocket after his federal government has taken its share in taxation, has either made no or inadequate provision for the "what if" then his predicament is his own cross to bear. He's had a lifetime of opportunity to make provision for this moment, and should be in a position to support himself without resort to internet begging. By contributing to Mr Rainey, all that you are doing is sending out a message to others, that it is all fine and well not to make provision for the future, that someone will come along and hand you the finance you need, when you need it, encouraging more and more people to labour under the misapprehension that, not matter what, no matter what they do, no matter how they live their life, no matter how little provision they make for their future, someone else will come along and pay for everything they want and/or need.
[/quote]

Well, your 'self rightous', 'serves him right' attitude has persuaded me Pal. I've just made a donation to the Chuck Rainey medical fund.

Congratulations, your reverse psychology worked.

Edited February 1, 2012 by gjones

[far0n]

Why don't one of the many millionaire artists he has worked with over the years help him out ? Just a thought like.

[Coilte]

[quote name='far0n' timestamp='1328074721' post='1521354']
Why don't one of the many millionaire artists he has worked with over the years help him out ? Just a thought like.
[/quote]

How do you know that they are not ? I'm sure that is why the appeal was started in the first place, so anyone who felt so inclined, could donate.

[discreet]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1328060288' post='1521328']
...your... ...attitude has persuaded me... I've just made a donation to the Chuck Rainey medical fund.
[/quote]

Me too. [url="http://chuckrainey.chipin.com/chuck-rainey-well-health-fund"]http://chuckrainey.c...ell-health-fund[/url]

So far only $5,252 has been raised from 128 contributors. A disgrace!

Edited February 1, 2012 by discreet

[lowdown]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328091741' post='1521532']
Me too. [url="http://chuckrainey.chipin.com/chuck-rainey-well-health-fund"]http://chuckrainey.c...ell-health-fund[/url]

So far only $5,252 has been raised from 128 contributors. A disgrace!
[/quote]

Early days - it was only started a couple of weeks ago.
I have just Tweeted & Facebooked the link.


Garry

Edited February 1, 2012 by lowdown

[discreet]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1328092770' post='1521553']
Early days - it was only started a couple of weeks ago. I have just Tweeted & Facebooked the link.
[/quote]

Ah, I did not know this, thanks Garry, good work.

[lowdown]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1328093005' post='1521555']
Ah, I did not know this, thanks Garry, good work.
[/quote]

Yep, anything to piss people off.


Garry

[discreet]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1328093424' post='1521563']
Yep, anything to piss people off.
[/quote]

Naughty.

[Gust0o]

Happy to contribute.

But, of course, Noel is quite right.

[Flanker]

I have suffered the same fate as Chuck, as a professional pilot that avenue has been closed to me but it is playing the bass that I miss the most.
Let's hope and pray that he can ( in time) play the bass again. It is a long hard slog and I'd imagine a lot harder at Chuck's age than mine( I am 51).
I'll make a donation.

[ped]

I'll FB and Tweet the link later too. Good luck to him. I'm sure many of us donate to worthy charities without getting bogged down in the precise reasons why the donation is being asked for. I guess it isn't easy to ask in the first place and maybe Chuck himself would be embarassed at the idea, but I for one think he's pretty cool and certainly don't mind sending a few beer tokens his way.