Synth bass - who on here does it?

[mcgraham]

Got a Microkorg XL recently. Used it at a practice last night. It was flipping stupendous. It was for church this Sunday, so songs were contemporary worship songs. The synth bass took what would've been some relatively modern (for the genre) but tired sounding songs and totally changed the sound of the band. I wasn't even using a crazy sound, it was relatively tame straight bass, but the way you can shape the sound and the attack... gosh it really is amazing what it can do!

I'd love to get a bit more input from people who use synth bass in a live band, and how you set up the sounds?

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1327588398' post='1513824']
Got a Microkorg XL recently. Used it at a practice last night. It was flipping stupendous. It was for church this Sunday, so songs were contemporary worship songs. The synth bass took what would've been some relatively modern (for the genre) but tired sounding songs and totally changed the sound of the band. I wasn't even using a crazy sound, it was relatively tame straight bass, but the way you can shape the sound and the attack... gosh it really is amazing what it can do!

I'd love to get a bit more input from people who use synth bass in a live band, and how you set up the sounds?
[/quote]

It's great fun isn't it

A lot of the synth stuff i do at the moment is covers so for the sounds i use, i program my gaia to get as close a sound to the original track. Then simply save the patch and recall it for the song.

I've got Gaia Sound design software which allows me to see all 3 tone paths and edit them accordingly, makes programming sooo much easier.

I can spend hours just sitting and creating different bass sounds on it, i love it

[mcgraham]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327588643' post='1513829']
It's great fun isn't it [/quote]
Yuuuup!!

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327588643' post='1513829']A lot of the synth stuff i do at the moment is covers so for the sounds i use, i program my gaia to get as close a sound to the original track. Then simply save the patch and recall it for the song.
[/quote]
That's helpful to know as a way to do it. How did you learn what bit goes where and how it affects the final sound? Did you find modifying patches the best way to start, or starting new patches from scratch to learn how things go together from the ground up? or something in between?

I'd be using this to play bass in church and contribute to the overall sound, but week to week the band setup will be different. Hence I need some useable sounds that work across all band setups (from bass, guitar and drums... to bass acoustic guitar x1/x2, electric guitar, drums keyboard, 3-4 vocals, etc) but that I also know how to tweak to fill out certain aspects of the sound if there's sonic space for it.

Korg put out a tweaked bank of patches on their website done by one of their designers and there's far more useable sounds on there, and I've nailed two great sounds for bass so far, but I need to learn how it all fits together, how I can modify them to get other sounds and also how I want the respective controls set up.

My first challenge is to unite some features across different patches that I like, where the patch gets a solid consistent round bass sound with a kick drum type attack with the cutoff freq down, then roll up the cutoff to 'reveal' a more aggressive filter underneath, then control the cutoff frequency with the mod wheel. That way I've got a 'go-to' patch for bass, that I can then control the aggression of with the modwheel.

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327588643' post='1513829']
I've got Gaia Sound design software which allows me to see all 3 tone paths and edit them accordingly, makes programming sooo much easier.
I can spend hours just sitting and creating different bass sounds on it, i love it
[/quote]
That sounds great. The XL has an editor too, any tips on how to approach setting a patch up via software?

[BottomE]

I'd like to do some of this but no absolutely bugger all about it. I have Cubase and a Midi Keyboard. What is a good way to start?

[BottomE]

above was my 1000th post

[mcgraham]

I'd love to help man but I couldn't give any useful advice with regards to connecting it up. I tried and failed with that approach so have opted for the standalone solution.

[BottomE]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1327594399' post='1513959']
I'd love to help man but I couldn't give any useful advice with regards to connecting it up. I tried and failed with that approach so have opted for the standalone solution.
[/quote]
Thanks. I got it all connected at home. I tried bringing it to a rehearsal and there was a lot of crackling coming from the PA when i plugged the PC into it. The band quickly lost interest so i didn't attempt it again.

At home it sounds great - ok my keyboard playing sux but the hugeness of the sound is impressive.

I was more interested in asking about cheap but good snyth bass keyboards or modules to get started with. I don't really like lugging the laptop around.

[mcgraham]

Well I can heartily recommend the Microkorg XL. It's got all the functions of the previous Microkorg (still in production) but has USB-MIDI connectivity as well as normal midi, so far easier to plug in and edit via a software editor if you so wish. It can be edited completely via software, or completely via the simple onboard controls, or left super simple via the onboard controls.

I got a free aftermarket bank of patches from Korg's website that I replaced the stock sounds with. This is (IMO) far more useable than all the stock sounds the XL comes with. The details would bore you but it instantly took a cool but not necessarily useful instrument to an even cooler and totally useable instrument with little to no tweaking.

[BigRedX]

Although nothing I'm currently doing uses any synths, I've been in bands in the past that have used them either played live or via sequencers. My current synth rig consists of a Yamaha KX5 MIDI controller keyboard, Nord Lead, Waldorf Microwave XT, Ensoniq ESQ1/ESQM and Casio CZ1. If I could only have one of these I'd happily settle for the Nord as it does pretty much everything I want from a synth and has a dedicated knob or button for every parameter.

As for getting the right sound for the song I've been doing this for so long now that most of it has become completely instinctive, also when I started out programming sounds, synths with memories were prohibitively expensive so every sound had to be set up from scratch (and written down on printed out patch charts in order to be able to use them again). That's probably why I still prefer synths with individual controls for every parameter or at least a dedicated button to call up each value rather than having to scroll through both parameters and values.

Also due to the different ways that synths create their sounds what works on one may not work on another. Here's a couple of tips though. If you're looking for bass sounds don't forget to check out what the lead patches sound like when transposed down an octave or two. And to add a bit more thump to the note attack try applying a very fast 1 octave pitch envelope to one of the oscillators.

Have fun!

[xilddx]

I'm about to start doing it. Can't wait!

[MusicJunkie]

The MicroKorg is absolutely one of my favourite bits of kit. Brilliant.

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1327590408' post='1513863']
Yuuuup!!


That's helpful to know as a way to do it. How did you learn what bit goes where and how it affects the final sound? Did you find modifying patches the best way to start, or starting new patches from scratch to learn how things go together from the ground up? or something in between?

I'd be using this to play bass in church and contribute to the overall sound, but week to week the band setup will be different. Hence I need some useable sounds that work across all band setups (from bass, guitar and drums... to bass acoustic guitar x1/x2, electric guitar, drums keyboard, 3-4 vocals, etc) but that I also know how to tweak to fill out certain aspects of the sound if there's sonic space for it.

Korg put out a tweaked bank of patches on their website done by one of their designers and there's far more useable sounds on there, and I've nailed two great sounds for bass so far, but I need to learn how it all fits together, how I can modify them to get other sounds and also how I want the respective controls set up.

My first challenge is to unite some features across different patches that I like, where the patch gets a solid consistent round bass sound with a kick drum type attack with the cutoff freq down, then roll up the cutoff to 'reveal' a more aggressive filter underneath, then control the cutoff frequency with the mod wheel. That way I've got a 'go-to' patch for bass, that I can then control the aggression of with the modwheel.


That sounds great. The XL has an editor too, any tips on how to approach setting a patch up via software?
[/quote]

I've been using soft synths for a while so i learnt through trial and error tbh. Just messing about with it.
Coming onto the Gaia everything seem so much simpler an easy to do compared to the soft synths.

Essentially on the Gaia i've got 3 channels of tone. All with an LFO that can be synced on all channels or have separate for each. Also with a ring modulator for two channels.
An Oscillator with 7 different wave forms, all with 3 variations so 21 waves in total to start with.
A filter section with 4 different filters, and then the amp section.
The Gaia also has on board effects so you can change the sound even further.

It all sounds fairly complicated but once you've had chance to sit down and play with the different functions with one tone at a time you begin to realise what each function does to the sound, allowing you to layer up sounds & get the tone your looking for.

Just sit down and play away with the sounds mate, if you've got preset tones that you like, have a look at the settings are set at & then go through one by one and see what affects the sound and you should start picking it up fairly quickly.

And most of all, have fun with it

[mcgraham]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327616985' post='1514435']Just sit down and play away with the sounds mate, if you've got preset tones that you like, have a look at the settings are set at & then go through one by one and see what affects the sound and you should start picking it up fairly quickly.

And most of all, have fun with it
[/quote]
That does seem to be getting good results! I spent yesterday afternoon reading the manual to understand the architecture and what might work for me. Spent an hour or so last night and again this morning just tweaking the sound that I felt was almost there (e.g. learning how different wave combinations work together, what I like, what I don't, how the blend of the two affects the overall sound, etc). The changes were, at least on paper, relatively small, and the sound is discernibly the same patch.... but it sounds SOOOO much better. In the same way as a good guitarist knows how to get a better sound from an amp that a lesser player would otherwise get. It would work for virtually any song that requires a bass but still stands out as distinctive rather than just being dull bass in the background. I've also set up the controls so that I can tweak on the fly from the 'standard' patch if necessary. I'll modify it further though...
- Modwheel = cutoff (for sure- works so well)
- Assignable knob 1 = chorus mix (set to 'dry' as standard)
- Assignable knob 1 = flanger mix (set to 'dry' as standard)
- Assignable knob 3 = attack time, so I can control how soft/hard the sound is on the fly

Now that I've got a sound I'm really pleased with / nailed (though not necessarily finished ) it is different but not dissimilar to the first sound you hear on the Moogmusicinc YT channel's demo of the upcoming Minitaur. It's not AS aggressive with the saw wave, but still very similar sort of sound.

[BigRedX]

I don't know what parameters your synth has, but if it was me I'd be looking at being able to tweak the following:

1. Either filter cut-off frequency or filter envelope depth - depends on the sound
2. Filter resonance (do Korg still call it "Peak"?)
3. Filter or Amp decay or release - will depend on the sound and how you play
4. If you are using cross-mod (pitch modulation of one oscillator by the other) and sync (forces oscillator 2 to reset the waveform to the beginning each time oscillator 1 completes a cycle) then I would put oscillator 2 (only) pitch on a dedicated control. You get some really nasty but tuneable sounds this way.

[mcgraham]

Cheers BRX! Yea the cutoff is on an assignable knob but I prefer using it like a tone control and so prefer it on the modwheel.

The resonance is probably going to go on a knob, but I need to work that one out first, and how it relates to the sounds I've got so far.

The decay aspect of this sound isn't so noticeable. I also prefer a constant sustain followed by predictable release as soon as I let go. It makes for a less messy sound, which is reeeeeally important with church stuff as a lot is heavily improvised.
EDIT: Which is why I prefer the attack, as I've found I can totally change the impression of the sound by just slowing the attack slightly, without actually changing the sound itself.

Re: crazy sounds - not yet. I'm there to play bass and just bring in some keyboard like idiosyncrasies rather than do anything mental just yet. Lack of sonic space for anything other than basslines and fills (they depend on me a lot for that) is what I'm there for.

Edited January 27, 2012 by mcgraham

[mcgraham]

Spent some more time programming last night. A really nice one is just a sine wave at about 75% volume, with another sinewave at about 40% but pitched an octave lower than the first, and then a low pass filter (12dB/oct) with the cutoff set low enough to balance out the volume across the range I'm using it in. It gets this MASSIVE sub sound that will just fill a room without getting in the way of a mix... simply cos there isn't anything else above that sub sound in the patch.

I've created another one using that same sub sound as one layer, and then introduced a more aggressive top layer with a saw wave. I've also detuned it slightly (+12 per cent) to thicken it up. I like it, but would need to hear it in a mix to decide whether it works or not.

[nottswarwick]

Do you go through your bass rig with these?

[urb]

Really interesting this topic has come up - I've been experimenting too at finding a way to bring in more synth bass and keyboard sounds into my set up - I've been checking out the whole Soundblox pedals with the hot hand and they do look and sound amazing but I was thinking after hearing them that actually I don't necessarily use a 'filter' wah sound on my bass much and shelling £300 for all the kit was a bit much for that.

My thing is that I now want to use Ableton live with 'LIVE' musicians - and so I've been researching and developing my set up for that - and I thought seeing as I have a ton of VST instruments that do some amazing bass synth sounds - and other synth sounds - it's just a case of controlling / playing them via MIDI - so I bought a [url="http://www.sonuus.com/products_i2m_mp.html"]Sonuus i2m[/url] recently and tested it in Ableton and it works well.My main Sei bass is midi-enabled but I have to say the tracking isn't great - I don't know why it's no brilliant and maybe I need to work on it some more - but it just doesn't track low notes very well - but the i2m does... and it's bus powered so no need to run it through a separate GI20 box either - all I have to do is split the signal and then I can play clean bass and synth sounds at the same time. It really works and now that I have a Launchpad controller too and a MIDI footswitch I'm ready to rock in a D'n'B stylee...

The soft synths I have are from Native Instruments - I have Massive and Reaktor - Massive has some filthy, dirty synth sounds that are utterly sick and totally adaptable - so once I get my head round it all I'll try and post a video - but I'd love to hear what others think of this set up and any other ways and means you've found to use computer technology to create your sound... I find it really exciting as the possibilities are endless and if I can use this with a live band then it'll be a really exciting step - in bringing the recording studio to the stage

[mcgraham]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1327741365' post='1515992']
Do you go through your bass rig with these?[/quote]
Yes - good question! My rig is a Berg stack, so relatively flat anyway. My extremely limited experience is that you ideally need to tailor each sound to the rig, room and band you're doing. How well the patch comes out over the amplification (whether PA/backline) will affect how you set it up, the room will obviously affect that, and how many other members and how much space they each take up in the mix matters.

To reiterate, I am just looking to play bass with my synth, so I'm not looking for immensely complicated sounds. If that's all you're looking for then your bass rig will be fine. If you want more top end or crazy effects, your rig may not be great at reproducing those sounds.

[quote name='urb' timestamp='1327747511' post='1516088']
Really interesting this topic has come up - I've been experimenting too at finding a way to bring in more synth bass and keyboard sounds into my set up - I've been checking out the whole Soundblox pedals with the hot hand and they do look and sound amazing but I was thinking after hearing them that actually I don't necessarily use a 'filter' wah sound on my bass much and shelling £300 for all the kit was a bit much for that.

My thing is that I now want to use Ableton live with 'LIVE' musicians - and so I've been researching and developing my set up for that - and I thought seeing as I have a ton of VST instruments that do some amazing bass synth sounds - and other synth sounds - it's just a case of controlling / playing them via MIDI - so I bought a [url="http://www.sonuus.com/products_i2m_mp.html"]Sonuus i2m[/url] recently and tested it in Ableton and it works well.[/quote]

urb, thanks for sharing! I think I'm being a bit dense, what exactly are you looking to incorporate into your live gigs from synths?

[Musicman20]

Will the Microkorg XL allow any kind of drum pattern in the background whilst you play over it? Eg for practice.

I've been looking into ways to explore more 'dance' orientated bass work. Most of my friends who play guitar/drums aren't into more electronic/electro stuff, but I am, and I'd like to explore the synth for bass and other parts for future projects.

So, I figure live this goes through the PA and a monitor, and can obviously be through your amp as well (i'd use one of my bass amps for now).

The price, to be honest, seems low considering what I'd spend on a new bass.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Musicman20

[mcgraham]

I haven't come across any section that allows drum loops in the background. However, that's not to say it's not there, or that there is an alternative therein, Off the top of my head, you could
-split the keyboard (determined by pitch rather than ALWAYS the centre key or anything like that),
-set up an arpeggiator pattern on one side [which tempo and beats are accentuated and swing etc can be easily tailored and in great detail]
-then shift the pitch of the available notes down/up to the side where the arpeggiator is NOT sounding. That way you can have some kind of regulated rhythm with whatever feel you like, and STILL play over the top of it.

Re: price - yes it is ludicrously cheap for what you get. Bear in mind that there is no innate 'tone' that means the sound instantly works in a band situation. You are responsible for creating the tone, so you need to have the creative mindset to come up with what you want (either by tweaking an existing patch or from scratch) and then be able to shape that to work well live. I'm still learning but time spent doing recording and experimenting with bass tone will come in handy here. It's a steep learning curve if you've never played with LPF/HPF, filter, chorus, flanger, compressor, different wave forms etc before, but I've found visualising it help.

[urb]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1327771849' post='1516585']

urb, thanks for sharing! I think I'm being a bit dense, what exactly are you looking to incorporate into your live gigs from synths?
[/quote]

Basically I'm using my bass to play soft synths via my Macbook Pro - I'm a sh*t keyboard player so I'm cheating a little - but also it cuts down the number of people I'll need in my new band... i.e. I'll play keys and bass (and loops and drums etc) and then use horn players, guitarist and drummer etc - does that make sense?

No exactly like this but kind of... with musicians...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsUnUwenBsM

[mcgraham]

Ahh! Thanks for clarifying. I suggest speaking to pantherairsoft/Shep if you haven't already. While he isn't quite doing that (yet) his approach to his band means he is simulating a lot of effects that would normally be sonic space by keys players.

Alternatively, could you perhaps just a get a simple control surface to trigger samples/pre-recorded parts? that should be relatively easy to do/trigger from your laptop whilst playing bass.

I've just done a morning session at church on synth and it was excellent fun. I had a lot of positive feedback, and with a full PA behind you you can really fill a room.... dare I say it, perhaps fill a room even better than a normal bass can?

[WalMan]

As elsewhere I picked up a DSI MoPho yesterday to use with the Roland bass pedals, but I think I shall also take my M-Audio keyboard and try running that through the pedals to the MoPho. It's only a mono synth, but for what I was after (something for the pedals) it sounded great on last nights first tinker.

When I originally got the pedals the idea was to use it to fire Sampletank on the laptop, but with the pedals on MIDI connections rather tha USB from the keyboard it would not work & I had notes sticking on etc so had to rething things. That became a really cheap D110 rack that worked OK and now the MoPho which sound like it will be just the job.

Roll on Thursdays r/h to give it its first outing

[mcgraham]

Walman, let us know how you get on!

As a final update, I did another stint at church on Sunday evening and got to tweak some sounds a bit more and see what worked. All in all, between practice and actual playing I probably got about around 3-4 hours total over the course of Sunday to play around with a full band. Bear in mind that the sort of stuff we're doing is not dead set arrangements, it's vocally pretty intensive, and a relatively full band, hence crazy sounds are not really doable on the fly because it gets in the way, but conversely there's lots of space for improv.

I literally stuck with two patches for the whole of the second set cos they just worked better than anything else I'd managed to come up.
1) Minitaur patch I created, which was osc1=saw, osc2=square, LPF @ 12db/oct, no resonance. Assignable controls set to osc1 level, osc2 level and cutoff frequency. This gave me a lot of control over the sound of just a single patch. Worked for more aggressive songs. The saw wave gives it a lot of growl, really holds together on low notes, and the square wave fills in the upper harmonics nicely.
2) Simple sine wave patch I created, osc1=sine wave, osc2=sine wave an octave below blended in to fill in the low end, LPF @ 12db/oct, no resonance. Assignable controls weren't really necessary on this one as it was just such a pure dub sound. Worked for songs that were moderately upbeat, and also very slow songs and for pads in general. Think P-bass, tone rolled off, plucked with side of the thumb over the fingerboard - huge fundamental.

Both patches needed an EQ boost around 160-200Hz to bring out the balls of the bass sound and so as not to interfere with the other instruments. All in all, simple patches worked best sonically and allowed me to do more. It sounded huge, and totally made some of the songs.

Edited January 30, 2012 by mcgraham