volume eleven guitars... anyone heard of them?

[Shockwave]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1341245338' post='1715663']
A PM is a Personal Message. Look at the little envelope at the top right of your page. Alternatively, look at the "Personal Messenger" section in your profile.

From my point of view, "Hand Built in the UK" suggests that the bodies and necks have been created in the UK. Not CNC, but a human with bandsaw/router etc.
[/quote]

He messaged me saying he found the PM's. But has yet to update his post here.

[quote name='Mudie' timestamp='1341243598' post='1715631']
Firstly, i have not received any PMs or even know what a PM is. I sand the bodies by hand, spray varnish and paint the wood and necks, fit them, solder and fit all the electronics and hardware (ALL of which are UK sourced, apart from our capacitors which are ex-russian military) from a small workshop in Worcester.

Yes, the wood comes in from china. it is built in Worcester. I could source wood and have them made entirely made in the UK but this would push the price up to around the £1000-2000 mark and wouldn't make any difference in the quality.
[/quote]

The wood comes from China? You mean the already CNC routed body and the CNC ready made and ready fretted Far eastern necks come from China?

Hand built in the UK suggests the bass is built from scratch in the UK. Sure base materials can be sourced from other countries, it would crazy to suggest otherwise. But the milling and routing and the actual building of the neck, would have to be done in the UK to really bear the "Made in UK" statement. All your doing is importing ready routed bodys and assembled necks assembling and finishing them (Possibly). Why not state on your website that the basses are hand assembled and finished in the UK with parts sourced from the far east? Whats the problem with having a little transparancy here?

Sure the price of the bass will go up by a large amount if its all sourced in the UK. But surely thats what a Made in UK bass is?

[grumble]

Maybe 'Constructed in The UK' would be better ? Anyhows kudos to Mudie for coming here and talking, extra kudos for being honest about his sources etc.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='grumble' timestamp='1341245667' post='1715671']
Maybe 'Constructed in The UK' would be better ? Anyhows kudos to Mudie for coming here and talking, extra kudos for being honest about his sources etc.
[/quote]

Well to be fair hes only honest because he is being called out on it. His website still states "handbuilt in the UK"

Contructed would assume he constructed the necks, where they are all ready constructed. I think assembled would be more in keeping.

[Mudie]

[quote name='grumble' timestamp='1341245667' post='1715671']
Maybe 'Constructed in The UK' would be better ? Anyhows kudos to Mudie for coming here and talking, extra kudos for being honest about his sources etc.
[/quote]

Thanks, the key word here seems to be assume. i see that people could be mislead, although i talk every customer though the process exactly before a sale. i will change the wording as i need to up-date the site anyway. thanks for the advice

Edited July 2, 2012 by Mudie

[Shockwave]

Again, I would say construced, whilst technically correct as it is assembling something. Could be misconstrued as its a term not used in guitar building that often, which would imply it is something special or made from scratch. Using words like Assembled would be more transparant. Constructed can be rather vague.

[LukeFRC]

I think it would be far easier if you just said something along the lines of "i get the best parts from x, y, and z made for me and put them together into a cracking bass", I mean thats what the overwater/tanglewoods are- mass produced but final set up here giving it that seal of approval.
I am never quite sure what the problem is with just saying that, I mean at some levels a bass mass produced in china is the same as one mass produced in mexico or america... what matters is the quality of the parts and that's what is unclear about these basses.

I could go the far east and buy parts and sell them in the uk for thousands (Lakland for example) or I could go and do the same and sell wholesale for £20 each. It's knowing the difference in quality.

[noelk27]

The Trades Descriptions Act 1968 (cap 29), sec 36(1), is the relevant legislation. Therein it is stated, under the heading "Country of origin", that, "[f]or the purposes of this Act goods shall be deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change." A significant body of case law exists, and my advice to the OP would be that the sanding, finishing and assembly to which he refers arguable does not meet the "substantial change" test, in that the CNC'd bodies and necks produced overseas are still, after all processing, CNC'd bodies and necks. Should any BCer have complaint with product purchased from the OP's company they should address the matter to Trading Standards local to the OP's registered business address.

Edited July 3, 2012 by noelk27

[Stacker]

You need to get the pup routs correct on the Jazzes. That put me off buying one of your basses.

[muttley]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1341275722' post='1716370']
The Trades Descriptions Act 1968 (cap 29), sec 36(1), is the relevant legislation. Therein it is stated, under the heading "Country of origin", that, "[f]or the purposes of this Act goods shall be deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change." A significant body of case law exists, and my advice to the OP would be that the sanding, finishing and assembly to which he refers arguable does not meet the "substantial change" test, in that the CNC'd bodies and necks produced overseas are still, after all processing, CNC'd bodies and necks. Should any BCer have complaint with product purchased from the OP's company they should address the matter to Trading Standards local to the OP's registered business address.
[/quote]

Actually, I disagree with that statement. From what I've read in this thread, the basses are finished, assembled, set up and tested here in the UK. A box full of parts does not equal a playable instrument, therefore Vol 11 could probably argue that a substantial change has taken place during the assembly and testing process. However, I do think that "assembled in the UK" is more appropriate (and less misleading) than "made in the UK".

It would be good to see some unique designs, if a market for such things exists.

[skankdelvar]

At the hobbyist level that most of us operate, 'built' and 'assembled' are pretty much interchangeable terms. In terms of trading standards they are not.

FWIW, I've had a look at the Vol 11 site and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info about [i]anything[/i], for - as the website states - they're migrating their store to a different platform and that's where the product detail is to be found. Fair enough.

But on the 'behind the brand' page the partners' mission statements wax lyrical on the virtues of 'handbuilt' gear. Well, that's entirely true, but such observations might by accident serve to reinforce a mistaken assumption that the Vol 11 product is hand-built by luthiers, which most would agree is a distance from 'built' and an even greater distance from 'assembled'.

As others have pointed out, Mr Mudie's offerings might be attractive enough in their own right and as they stand. Perhaps he should make a greater virtue of the components' constructional quality and his own finishing skills. So far as I am aware, such an approach has not impeded the very well-known 'assembler' Nash Guitars from achieving prominence and desirability.

For myself, I don't care if the woodwork comes from China or Chislehurst. If Mr Mudie can chop out VFM quality axes that look and sound good, then good luck to him.

While some may be of the opinion that Vol 11 is sailing a little close to the wind, it equally behoves us as a public forum [i]to be seen to be [/i]giving posters the benefit of the doubt. Mr Mudie has explained the nature of his offering and indicated that he will change his website. Beyond that, our writ does not run.

To avoid the possibility of conflict between Basschat and Volume 11 as legal trading entities, it might be best were the thread to be locked and that those who continue to harbour concern should contact their local trading standards office as private individuals.

Edited July 3, 2012 by skankdelvar

[LukeFRC]

ach I think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion.
I don't really think vol 11 are out to defraud. I think people's responses can be helpful for them, and lets face it- if they put together a product people want... well they will get a lot of sales.
Generally we all want to see a UK based bass company do well.

I think the problem is really a wee bit lack of transparency and a lot a lack of confidence.
Some of the biggest manufacturers in the world buy in parts and are more or less just shops for bolting them together. It's not a bad thing, if anyone wants to sell me a valenti bass, well yes please! If you are honest about it, and are selling it on the basis that you put together something better than anyone could do themselves then go for it!
For instance, if I buy a body from china, Who knows what I might get, but buying in bulk you can spec the quality of wood, and weights way better than we could at the same price.
If you do it well your business plan is a good one, just be more open about what you do (and that doesn't mean don't have some bloody good advertising copy!) and do it well

[Mudie]

Hi guys,

For those of you that found us on facebook, Thanks for the kind messages and support, Really appreciated

As for the legal issues that some of you have raised I have been in contact with a lawyer and although technically correct (manufactured in china but built in the UK) I can see how this could be misconstrued and have contacted my web-designer to take off the hand built in the UK tag line.

We don’t intend to mislead and talk each customer through our process (we even keep an email diary with photos an updates so they can see exactly what’s being done and when, we then include a dated task sheet with dates and times of process completion)

Obviously I could talk about the high quality of our guitars forever but over the internet that’s difficult to prove, so for all of you cinics or even just interested parties I have booked spaces at guitar shows in

Leeds – Bradford

North east – Newcastle

Merseyside – Aintree

And for you Hawthorne Heights fans on the next UK tour with Kyoto Drive.

I will also have video reviews and sound clips in the next week for those of you who want a look/listen. I was told by the moderator that this thread would be locked but I’m Guessing he hasn’t had chance to yet.

Thanks again for all you’re words of advise and before this thread is locked a quick shout out to the support from both basschat and reddit – r/bass.

Thanks everyone,

[url="http://www.facebook.com/volumeeleven"]www.facebook.com/volumeeleven[/url]

Edited July 3, 2012 by Mudie

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1341321235' post='1716954']
Some of the biggest manufacturers in the world buy in parts and are more or less just shops for bolting them together. ... selling it on the basis that you put together something better than anyone could do themselves then go for it!
[/quote]

Given the likely customer base - people who know a [i]bit[/i] about this sort of thing - then such an approach would go down well. 'Quality assembly' is a positive sort of niche to be occupying and the perceived cost of 'handbuilt' might even put some people off before they go any further than the home page.