When the desk can't provide enough wedges/monitor mixes

[Twigman]

I play in a 5 piece band:

Drums
Guitar
Bass
Keyboard
Vocal - who also plays Sax and Percussion.....

Many venues seem to only support 4 monitor mixes.

Generally the keyboards are DI'd so he gets a wedge and a mix.
Vocals always need a wedge and a mix
Drummers always need a wedge and a mix or they'd hear nothing above the banging and crashing.
The guitarist always seems to get the remaining wedge and mix...


and I generally end up without my own mix on the wedge - sometimes I'll get a wedge but often with someone else's mix in it.

Why do us bass players have to put up with not having our own wedge mix?
Why do we come last in the pecking order?
Why do so many venues not cater for 5 piece bands properly?

At least there's plenty of excuse mileage there......



This rant was brought on by the stage plan for our forthcoming gig in Thessaloniki.......

[bartelby]

When my band plays gigs we're lucky if any of us have got a monitor.
We just get on with it.

[Twigman]

[quote name='bartelby' timestamp='1328876692' post='1534144']
When my band plays gigs we're lucky if any of us have got a monitor.
We just get on with it.
[/quote]
On a large stage in a large venue with a large PA, monitors are essential.......but often venues only have a FOH desk which allows only 4 monitor mixes (like a Soundcraft GB4 or soemthing)....

[andydye]

We tend to have 4 mixes:
1 front left
2 front right
3 keys
4 drums

I usually get by on spill from the other monitors (1 & 2), my backline and the guitarist's backline, not had a problem thus far

[Ed_S]

Have to say I'm a rock pub/club dweller, so consequently one of the 'get on with it' brigade, but surely if you're in a large venue with a large PA to deal with FoH, you can afford to make your on-stage mix from backline and whatever exists in the way of wedges communally acceptable, rather than needing mixes and wedges for every individual?

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ed_S

[Twigman]

[quote name='andydye' timestamp='1328877183' post='1534159']


I usually get by on spill from the other monitors (1 & 2), my backline and the guitarist's backline, not had a problem thus far
[/quote]

Me too - I stay close to the kit and get spill from the keyboard monitor and the guitar backlne - often though I can't even hear the guitar backline as it is too far away on the other side of the kit
I can rarely hear the vocals - get some spill from the singer's wedge but often not enough to hear cues in particularly noisy passages.
I long for my own wedge
It's so rare to find a venue capable of 5 wedge mixes......

[Lozz196]

I think monitors should be shared by, in this order: lead vocs, backing vocs, instruments if going through pa without their own amps, drums, anyone else.

In the originals band I`m in, I don`t sing, so don`t get a monitor, and this is no worries to me, as I get my sound from my amp. Whereas with the covers band, as I do BVs, I need a monitor.

[Twigman]

[quote name='Ed_S' timestamp='1328877202' post='1534162']
you can afford to make your on-stage mix from backline and whatever exists in the way of wedges communally acceptable, rather than needing mixes and wedges for every individual?
[/quote]
Sound doesn't carry far from those onstage wedges......The singer always insists on lots of vocal in his monitor, the keyboard insists on lots of keys in his.....I need primarily drums and guitar and vox in mine.
I always stand between the kit and the keyboard player, on the other side of the stage from the guitarist - the guitarist cannot hear my backline and I cannot hear his. We need to hear echa other in our wedges.
The drummer always has a wedge by his ear - mostly bass bit of guitar (we play to the delay) and vocals for cues.
We all need different things in our monitors...there is no concensus on the perfect onstage mix....and never will be

[JTUK]

I think 4 mixes is good... it is whether the boxes can take what is required.

This is why you still need your bigger rig as per the stage size UNLESS you know the company can deliver.

I always have a wry smile when I see the bass rock up with a single 12 or combo... and then finds out his sound can't cover the stage sound and
the monitors will always sacrifice bass first.

I let them fight it out as I know I can flood the stages I play on..if I have to.

[Twigman]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1328878279' post='1534190']
I think 4 mixes is good... it is whether the boxes can take what is required.

This is why you still need your bigger rig as per the stage size UNLESS you know the company can deliver.

I always have a wry smile when I see the bass rock up with a single 12 or combo... and then finds out his sound can't cover the stage sound and
the monitors will always sacrifice bass first.

I let them fight it out as I know I can flood the stages I play on..if I have to.
[/quote]

I think I'll be OK but I might struggle to hear the guitar......the backine as quoted on the plan is this:
[b]BASS[/b]: AMPEG SVT
AMPEG V-4B HEAD
1x 810E CABINET
2 x 4 x 10 CABS
1 x EBS POWERAMP+P.AMP

[b]GUITAR[/b]:
1 x MARSHALL JCM 2000 TSL 100W HEAD
1 x MARSHALL JCM 900 100W HEAD

2 x MARSHALL 1960 CABS

[musophilr]

If you regularly play where there's a house PA with not enough foldback sends, is it worth taking your own monitoring system with enough splitters to feed your monitoring system and the house PA ? Has anyone tried using a Jamhub with IEM onstage?

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1328877725' post='1534175']
Sound doesn't carry far from those onstage wedges......The singer always insists on lots of vocal in his monitor, the keyboard insists on lots of keys in his.....I need primarily drums and guitar and vox in mine.
I always stand between the kit and the keyboard player, on the other side of the stage from the guitarist - the guitarist cannot hear my backline and I cannot hear his. We need to hear echa other in our wedges.
The drummer always has a wedge by his ear - mostly bass bit of guitar (we play to the delay) and vocals for cues.
We all need different things in our monitors...there is no concensus on the perfect onstage mix....and never will be
[/quote]

May I suggest that the solution is right there in front of you? Given that by your own admission you're never likely to get your own mix, why not share the guitarist's mix? (You're going to hear the drums anyway I would think.) Once the decision's made it's just a matter of taking the technology with you to make it happen. If the stage is so big that you're getting problems with delay, then congratulations as you've almost certainly hit the bigtime and can bully people into giving you the stuff you need anyway.

[mike257]

Four mixes is pretty luxurious really! I've always been happy if I can hear the kick, snare and myself, anything beyond that is a bonus. Guess it might be different if you're dropping in for a dep/session and aren't used to the songs, but in originals band I've played with we've always worked out the kinks in the practice room so that we can get by with minimal/crappy foldback.

I think Lozz has it right on the money in terms of monitor priority. Maybe things could be helped along by the keyboard player buying himself an amp/powered wedge for his own 'backline'.

[JTUK]

I would not like to take your own monitors as the P.A co can get a bit liberal with what they put through them
if they can't provide to a decent spec, I don't know why you would use them as a company, personally

As regards Thessalonika...I hope their stagecraft is better than my last time there...
Anything out of Athens can be a bit hit and miss, IME..!!

I'd insist on a full technical rider if at all possible.

[musophilr]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1328883232' post='1534313']
I would not like to take your own monitors as the P.A co can get a bit liberal with what they put through them
if they can't provide to a decent spec, I don't know why you would use them as a company, personally
[/quote]

Ah, what I meant was the band controls its own foldback from its half of the splitter outputs and the FoH bloke can do what he likes with his half!

[Twigman]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1328881840' post='1534278']
May I suggest that the solution is right there in front of you? Given that by your own admission you're never likely to get your own mix, why not share the guitarist's mix? (You're going to hear the drums anyway I would think.) Once the decision's made it's just a matter of taking the technology with you to make it happen. If the stage is so big that you're getting problems with delay, then congratulations as you've almost certainly hit the bigtime and can bully people into giving you the stuff you need anyway.
[/quote]

When i said I play to the delay I meant we use the delay effect on the guitar as a metronome instead of a click track - the guitar delay sets the tempo.....
Not easy when one cannot hear the guitar coz it's on the other side of the stage

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1328884741' post='1534352']
When i said I play to the delay I meant we use the delay effect on the guitar as a metronome instead of a click track - the guitar delay sets the tempo.....
Not easy when one cannot hear the guitar coz it's on the other side of the stage
[/quote]

Fair enough, but my main point about sharing the mix still applies I would think. If money's not an issue and you can fit it into your vehicle, why not just take the extra bits you need to take a feed from the guitarist's monitor? Not a long term solution I'll grant you, but if it's important enough to post a thread about...

[Twigman]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1328885330' post='1534364']
Fair enough, but my main point about sharing the mix still applies I would think. If money's not an issue and you can fit it into your vehicle, why not just take the extra bits you need to take a feed from the guitarist's monitor? Not a long term solution I'll grant you, but if it's important enough to post a thread about...
[/quote]
100kg baggage allowance (between 5 of us) is limiting factor

Edited February 10, 2012 by Twigman

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1328885992' post='1534376']
100kg baggage allowance (between 5 of us) is limiting factor
[/quote]

Hmm. Tricky. Short of cosying up to the guitarist (which you've already indicated would be difficult), it's quite hard to know what to advise. I've run sound systems at many venues for many bands of differing competence levels (including one that made do with 2 monitor feeds - which was fun), so I do understand the personal nature of monitor feeds for some people. In the past, when feeds have been in short supply, I've tended to encourage the rhythm section to share a feed. Bottom line for me is that everybody needs to hear the vox, everybody needs to hear the drummer, and in the absence of sufficient resources everything else is down to compromise. What do you do when you're rehearsing? Maybe thinking that through might help.

[Twigman]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1328887398' post='1534399']
What do you do when you're rehearsing? .
[/quote]
Amps on back/side wall pointing in PA on front wall pointing back kit not mic'd just between the PA speakers.....everyone hears everything

[Paul_C]

If I can hear enough vocal to know where I am in the song, and enough drums to be sure of the current tempo then that'll do me, most of all I want to hear me good and loud, and my MB combo handles that

[Monckyman]

Answer 1. 4 mixes is 2 stereo amps. 5 mixes is 3 stereo amps.. ergo 4 mixes is a lot cheaper.
Most budget desks only have 6 auxes so two for FX leaves...
The best mix I can come up withg for a bassist is the drum mix. Plenty of timing and usually main vox.
If you need your own mix, [s]kill [/s]talk to the keys and convince him he would be happier, fitter,more productive with his own amp.
Failing that ,splits and a desk for you.
Nice weather in Thessaloniki

[LawrenceH]

I really can't see the point in even a 4-way mix in a 5-piece band no matter how big the stage, unless everyone's sonically p**&ing all over each other, in which case how bad does it sound FoH? The only exceptions I can think of are if a lot of them are singers.
Amazingly enough, I find that I can still hear the sound of a speaker even if someone else is listening to it so sharing a monitor is not a problem...a GOOD monitor though, now that is a luxury! It's often a problem of dispersion. Sidefill-style monitoring is a good solution IME, left, right, centre, back. So many monitors use horns with dispersion angles designed for vertical PA use that it makes more sense putting them vertical at the sides anyway.

Edited February 11, 2012 by LawrenceH

[Prime_BASS]

I've started asking for no bass in any of the monitors, the compact is on stage amd that provides all the monitoring me and the band need.
If I get a wedge then I ask for vocal and guitar but usually I'm in a position to hear the guitar anyway.

If I'm hearing drums from any other source than the kit then I'd screw.

If it bothers you that much try IEM.

[Phil Starr]

Most of us operate with one or two monitor mixes if we are lucky. Learning to pick what you need from the jumbled onstage sound is a skill you have to develop early for the average pub band.

In the days before monitor mixes I used to split the bass and guitar stacks so the guitarist would have one of your 4x10's and you would have one of his 4x12's in your stack, That would enable you to hear each other.

The other thing would be to buy a little powered monitor which you could feed from one of the other mixes, the guitarist's as has been suggested or even the FOH mix