Volumes in practice rooms and vocals

[razze06]

We have a loudness problem with our covers band, so i'm her to drink at the fountain of knowledge and experience that is the BC community

Essentially, our problem is that the singer can't hear herself much, especially in the faster and busier numbers. We do a mixture of R&B, funk, motown, some pop and other similar genres, so nothing too heavy. Lineup is bass, guitar, drums, keys and vocals.

We practice in a relatively small but reasonably well equipped practice room, and we've found that we can't crank up the volume of the vocals in PA as much as we need to because of feedback on the vocals mike (a shure sm58, like almost everybody else).

Why don't you just turn down, I hear you ask. Quite simply the drums won't go down enough in volume, and using the electric drumkit is really a last resort.

What options do we have? Get a personal monitor for the singer (tried with a floor wedge, even more feedback than before)? Get IEM for the vocals? That sounds like an idea, but will she change her singing style and loudness with the thingy in her ear? Work the eq somehow, to let her voice cut through better? Find a way to make the acoustic kit less loud? Invest in a magic piece of kit that will make the vocals stop feeding back in the practice room?

We need a solution that can be used outside of the practice room as well, if needed.

Any advice or personal experience is very welcome, cheers!

[BottomE]

Maybe some kind of IEM?

We have "educated" our drummer to chill out a bit at rehearsals and it works a treat. Personally, i luv playing quietly - its quite a nice trick to be able to keep it down and keep it groovy.

[CyberBass]

It's a common problem and you can't turn the drums down is a common excuse. Believe me if you all turn down a tad and adjust pa eq on the vocals it should be fine. The other thing to consider is to get the mix right at less volume prior to the vocalist starting or arriving the when vocalist starts final tweaks can be made.

[charic]

This may sound very VERY silly but has she tried singing louder?

[skej21]

Make the drummer use hot rods for rehearsals. It'll decrease the volume of the drums whilst allowing for a realistic bounce, unlike brushes.

[razze06]

Regarding singing louder, she sings some bits louder and other quieter, and the quiet bits seems to get lost the most (unsurprisingly)

Educating the drummer is ongoing. I had thought of buying some lightweight sticks, but i'd like to ask him first

Turning everybody down is a common call at practice. In honesty, I can hear well enough, but she doesn't and that's the problem

[LukeFRC]

make sure she actually sings into the mic, like really close... and then work with where it is pointing too. obviously not towards a speaker or the direct reflection off that speaker.
then look at how you EQ the vox, and send an EQed mix to the wedge.

[risingson]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1329492970' post='1543348']
Make the drummer use hot rods for rehearsals. It'll decrease the volume of the drums whilst allowing for a realistic bounce, unlike brushes.
[/quote]

9/10 drummers I know would hate this suggestion but it would certainly go some way to helping!

You could look at building some inexpensive baffles Marco, although the practicalities of moving them around might be a bit of a nightmare. You can pick up drum shields relatively cheap now as well.

[razze06]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1329493238' post='1543355']
make sure she actually sings into the mic, like really close... and then work with where it is pointing too. obviously not towards a speaker or the direct reflection off that speaker.
then look at how you EQ the vox, and send an EQed mix to the wedge.
[/quote]

We have told her to sing really close to mike ajd she does. The problem with orienting the mike is a critical one. The room is small, the two PA speaker are directly ahead of her, so she gets the reflection off the back wall. Perhaps I can try equing out some frequencies...

[charic]

Why not practice with her facing the speakers and you lot?

[Jacqueslemac]

We had the same problem and have overcome it with a combination of
turning everything down as much as possible (there's a tendency for everyone to gradually get louder)
moving the singer as far away from the drummer as possible
bringing in a monitor for the singer
tweaking the PA settings lots and lots while also experimenting with mic placement in relation to the PA and the singer's mouth.

We've managed to get the singer loud enough now, that I have to push my earplugs in really deeply!

[bassintheface]

a common problem for many bands!
A simple and cheap fix is to get some of those cheap yellow or orange foam plug ear plug defenders - you know, the ones that you squeeze and pop in your ear.
Just use one in one ear (I tend to go for the side closest to the snare & hats).
It cuts out some of the hi freq 'fiz' and sparkle and when singing, you can certainly hear yourself so much better. More importantly, it does cut some volume.
Try singing / talking with a finger in one ear and you'll see what I mean - it's like you can almost 'feel' the notes, but is sooooo much cheaper than IEM's.

Edited February 17, 2012 by bassintheface

[Gust0o]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1329492970' post='1543348']
Make the drummer use hot rods for rehearsals. It'll decrease the volume of the drums whilst allowing for a realistic bounce, unlike brushes.
[/quote]

This^

[discreet]

Drummers [i]can [/i]play quieter. Whether they [i]want[/i] to is another issue.

[Ed_S]

I went down the 'throw some money at it' route and put together a little rack to augment the gear at the rehearsal studios. All of it is Behringer's finest - as cheap as possible whilst still doing the job - and consists of a 'tube' preamp, compressor, feedback destroyer and EQ. First ring out the room and set the EQ, then set your preamp, compression and limiting to match your vocalist. The feedback destroyer is automatic; it 'listens' and reacts accordingly to prevent the usual howl. With the same singer in the same position in the same room week on week, you literally never have to touch it - just plug the mic into the preamp, and the line-out into the desk and bang, you're done! Total cost.. maybe £500 including the rack case and power conditioner, but worth every penny.

[musophilr]

Guitarists either use the "It's my sound, maan" excuse for being too loud, or they blame the drummer. (I know, I am one!) Having said that, IMO you need to be able to play at reduced volume 'cos they might ask you to do that at a gig where they're paying you good money and you have to do what they're paying you to do. Therefore you should not only practice playing the dots, you should practice playing them at various volume levels. And you have to accept that in some cases you might have to compromise on tone quality if you've been relying on a cranked amplifier.

It IS possible for a drummer to get a powerful rock sound without bashing seven bells of hell out of the skins, I know a chap who can do that. But just as a guitarist might have to accept a compromise on tone quality, so should other band members.

BTW try nobbling the vocal EQ as follows: (1) take out the bass. The female voice produces almost no sound in that frequency band anyway so you're losing nothing by doing so other than the opportunity for bass frequencies to start feeding back. (2) Hike the 3kHz mid-range by 3dB, it will make the vocals stick out a bit more

I don't like the yellow spongy earplugs, they cut treble and some midrange and let in all the bass, so you get a highly bass-biased version of the sound. The ~£180 personally moulded jobs are very good.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='razze06' timestamp='1329493407' post='1543363']
We have told her to sing really close to mike ajd she does. The problem with orienting the mike is a critical one. The room is small, the two PA speaker are directly ahead of her, so she gets the reflection off the back wall. Perhaps I can try equing out some frequencies...
[/quote]

try.... pointing them into crossing corners....
where are the guitar amps pointing? make sure they arn't pointing towards singers ears, eq these (and the bass) and try and take out the mids around either the resonant frequancy and or the human vox range.
eq her vox, try adding the highs and high mids that will let her hear herself, it doesn't have to sound pretty- just work
if using a foldback for her maybe try putting it on a crate or the like to get it closer to her... or if it is too close move it back to the best hearing distance for her.
hot rods...

btw is this a studio I would know.

[razze06]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1329493578' post='1543365']
Why not practice with her facing the speakers and you lot?
[/quote]

She does, sorry if I wasn't clear about that

[51m0n]

Take the batter skin of each drum.

Full drum with a towel big enough to take up 3/4 of the drum

Replace batter head and tune.

Instance drums at 40%volume - drummer will hate you

Seriously a kit set up like this (play with the amount of stuff in the drums, start with some tea towels and move up) can really save you.

Really though the drummer ought to be able to keep it together. If you all just turn the heck down by 1/3, and the drummer uses lighter sticks and a lighter touch you probably shouldnt need to go down this route at all.

[razze06]

[quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1329496240' post='1543428']
Guitarists either use the "It's my sound, maan" excuse for being too loud, or they blame the drummer. (I know, I am one!) Having said that, IMO you need to be able to play at reduced volume 'cos they might ask you to do that at a gig where they're paying you good money and you have to do what they're paying you to do. Therefore you should not only practice playing the dots, you should practice playing them at various volume levels. And you have to accept that in some cases you might have to compromise on tone quality if you've been relying on a cranked amplifier.

It IS possible for a drummer to get a powerful rock sound without bashing seven bells of hell out of the skins, I know a chap who can do that. But just as a guitarist might have to accept a compromise on tone quality, so should other band members.

BTW try nobbling the vocal EQ as follows: (1) take out the bass. The female voice produces almost no sound in that frequency band anyway so you're losing nothing by doing so other than the opportunity for bass frequencies to start feeding back. (2) Hike the 3kHz mid-range by 3dB, it will make the vocals stick out a bit more

I don't like the yellow spongy earplugs, they cut treble and some midrange and let in all the bass, so you get a highly bass-biased version of the sound. The ~£180 personally moulded jobs are very good.
[/quote]


Good practical advice on the eq, i'll try that.

Incidentally, our guitarist is generally quiet and rarely needs to be told to turn down. More often than not he's asked to get a bit more volume! You heard it here first,..

Probably it doesn't help that our drummer likes a bit of the old metal, and likes to bash away at full strength in the privacy of his own garage

When we need to play quieter or just in a more volume-controlled manner, we just use the electric drumkit. Using it all the time at practice is an option, but not a great one.

Thanks all the advice folks, plenty to try here!

[crez5150]

New Drummer..... Simples

[razze06]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1329497845' post='1543461']
Really though the drummer ought to be able to keep it together. If you all just turn the heck down by 1/3, and the drummer uses lighter sticks and a lighter touch you probably shouldnt need to go down this route at all.
[/quote]

Spot on!

Doctoring the drumkit is not an option, the kit belongs to the room, not us

[Marvin]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1329494296' post='1543375']
Drummers [i]can [/i]play quieter. Whether they [i]want[/i] to is another issue.
[/quote]

This.

As a point in case, I went to see a band call Willie and the Bandits around New Year. If you get the chance to see them I suggest you do so. Anyway, their gigging volume was spot on. I could hear everything perfectly well, still talk to the person next to me without shouting and I didn't come away with my ears whistling. If a band can do that live there is no reason it can't be done at rehearsal. Jab your drummer in the eye with a spare drumstick every time he gets too loud or something.

[LawrenceH]

If the acoustics of the practice room aren't great, then if you're in the position to sort it out or if you can't maybe consider an alternative place - makes a very big difference.

A good drummer can play quietly without messing up the feel..but it takes decent technique, the appropriate kit (light cymbals/sticks/skins) and the will to do it. One or more of these may not be possible!

Over the years I have found female vocalists in particular struggle to hear themselves in front of a band, I've had to get monitors up to ear-bleeding levels for some of them. Added to the problem I find an SM58 not a good choice of mic for all female vox - something like an SM87 can work a lot better, but they cost - trying a few mics is a worthwhile exercise. Making sure the voicings of other instruments in the band aren't sitting too heavily in the vocal range helps a lot too.

Edited February 17, 2012 by LawrenceH

[skej21]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329493303' post='1543358']
9/10 drummers I know would hate this suggestion but it would certainly go some way to helping!
[/quote]

True, but similarly I hate having to rehearse in a box room with crap equipment/sound because it's cheaper but we all have to make sacrifices sometimd for the 'greater good'...