risingson Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329998799' post='1551019'] This is the problem. I said wide array, not every genre! Chris squire also in my opinion is not anywhere near up there with the likes of Janek Gwizdala or Richard Bona! Not even close. [/quote] Roles reversed, I don't believe either bassist you've just mentioned could do Chris Squire's job in Yes either, or certainly no better. In the kindest possible way, I think you have a slightly naive view in this respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='4000' timestamp='1329997332' post='1550981'] First point; none of those issues are anywhere near as important as being able to play the right thing for the song. Someone who know his theory back to front and can play at the speed of light in perfect time is still incompetent if they can't play what the song requires, or something that takes the song to the next level. You don't need any real theory at all to be an excellent bass player in most genres, although it certainly isn't necessarily a hindrance and can help a great deal. If you think you do need all that then your emphasis is in the wrong area. It's quite possible to come up with a glorious line without really knowing how you did it or what the theory behind it is. Of course some people need the theory before they can do that, but others don't. By your argument Jeff Berlin (for example) would be one of the best bassists ever in any band situation, in any situation, when quite plainly he wouldn't be (despite what he may think!). Also FWIW, in a lot of bands the band leader / songwriter etc shows the bassist what to play, although the bassist may then get chance to expand on it. I think that's something you'll maybe need to get used to. In a music school it's likely that many of the other bassists you meet will want to be the next Jaco, but in the real world that's not necessarily the case. Two very different environments. Sometimes the time is never right. Learning that can be very difficult; I'm still trying. [/quote] Theres a lot of presumptions your making by my posts. To address your point of playing whats right for the song. I am 100% behind that point. However, there are many many many songs out there. Each song requires something different, and a good player will have the skills to play whats necessary for the part. In some band situation for example, Jeff Berlin's playing might be a perfect. Also the guys you play who you think are keeping it simple, doing big arena tours and stuff can play some incredible stuff that requires huge knowledge of theory. I know this because i know and have seen the young guys in london play when they're not supporting and artist and are just jamming. You presume i'm not used to being told what to play...... If anything that is pretty much what i do all the time, i am very used to it and i am very comfortable with not changing it at all or changing it if it is agreed t can be expanded. In a music school everyone wants to reach their potential. You pay ridiculous amounts of money to learn what i takes to be a successful pro with a long career. I'm told that these are the things to learn so i learn them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329999257' post='1551030'] Roles reversed, I don't believe either bassist you've just mentioned could do Chris Squire's job in Yes either, or certainly no better. In the kindest possible way, I think you have a slightly naive view in this respect. [/quote] well they could. I've seen Janek play 3 times and he can definitely cover that material and enjoy it. I had a lesson with steve lawson who IMO is a great virtuoso of the electric bass. i was amazed with how strong he sounded when playing simple lines, much cleaner and clinical than the older guys did. He can definitely play that stuff but chooses not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329998799' post='1551019'] This is the problem. I said wide array, not every genre! Chris squire also in my opinion is not anywhere near up there with the likes of Janek Gwizdala or Richard Bona! Not even close. [/quote] In terms of what? Chris Squire can WRITE. Janek Gwizdala or Richard Bona are not anywhere near up there with the likes of Chris squire in terms of being part of a successful writing team, their bank balances may reflect this You simply cannot compare a session musician with a band member. Successful bands tend to be able to communicate feelings and philosophies and observations lyrically and musically in a way a wider audience can relate to. Most session musicians' attempts I've heard have been failures. Session musicians are experts in operating their machines with the requisite level of feel to fulfil someone else's vision in as short a time as possible. Band musicians are very different beasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329998799' post='1551019'] Imagine your a session player. [/quote] I am. I'm doing quite a lucrative one this afternoon actually. Never had a lesson, never learnt any theory, and certainly never paid "ridiculous amounts of money" to be told I have to sound like everyone else on the converyor belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329999639' post='1551041'] well they could. I've seen Janek play 3 times and he can definitely cover that material and enjoy it. I had a lesson with steve lawson who IMO is a great virtuoso of the electric bass. i was amazed with how strong he sounded when playing simple lines, much cleaner and clinical than the older guys did. He can definitely play that stuff but chooses not to. [/quote] You have completely missed the point. I can play Chris Squire's lines, you can, but you or I could NOT have created them. If you have no musical ideas, or only naive ones, in your soul, it doesn't matter how well you can play does it? You should stop judging musicians on their psychomotor skills and get the the heart of the art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330000190' post='1551062'] You have completely missed the point. I can play Chris Squire's lines, you can, but you or I could NOT have created them. If you have no musical ideas, or only naive ones, in your soul, it doesn't matter how well you can play does it? You should stop judging musicians on their psychomotor skills and get the the heart of the art. [/quote] Sometimes (just sometimes mind) you hit the nail firmly & squarely on the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330000190' post='1551062'] You have completely missed the point. I can play Chris Squire's lines, you can, but you or I could NOT have created them. If you have no musical ideas, or only naive ones, in your soul, it doesn't matter how well you can play does it? You should stop judging musicians on their psychomotor skills and get the the heart of the art. [/quote] This. If you want to make a long-term living out of music. Song writing ability is far more important than technical chops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330001626' post='1551106'] This. If you want to make a long-term living out of music. Song writing ability is far more important than technical chops. [/quote] Tell that to any of the thousands of guys who have made a good long term living from music without being a songwriter.In those cases,technical ability and general musical knowledge is far more important. Likewise,there are thousands of people who write songs of varying quality and have never been able to make a living from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hey Doddy, when did you get back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hey.I got back last weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329999639' post='1551041'] well they could. I've seen Janek play 3 times and he can definitely cover that material and enjoy it. I had a lesson with steve lawson who IMO is a great virtuoso of the electric bass. i was amazed with how strong he sounded when playing simple lines, much cleaner and clinical than the older guys did. He can definitely play that stuff but chooses not to. [/quote] No, they probably couldn't. And the reason is that good music transcends good technique and good playing. Technique is not synonymous with musicianship, it's not measurable by the amount of time you've put into learning how to play with impeccable timing and with good theoretical technique. That's what everyone who champions the 'pros' and rubbishes the likes of smaller time bass players don't understand. I went to music school too, but they never taught me this, everyone was just too occupied with technique and theory. I just had to learn it for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1329999941' post='1551052'] In terms of what? Chris Squire can WRITE. Janek Gwizdala or Richard Bona are not anywhere near up there with the likes of Chris squire in terms of being part of a successful writing team, their bank balances may reflect this You simply cannot compare a session musician with a band member. Successful bands tend to be able to communicate feelings and philosophies and observations lyrically and musically in a way a wider audience can relate to. Most session musicians' attempts I've heard have been failures. Session musicians are experts in operating their machines with the requisite level of feel to fulfil someone else's vision in as short a time as possible. Band musicians are very different beasts. [/quote] i agree completely. Trouble is bands are finding it harder and harder to get sustained success in todays industry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1329999952' post='1551054'] I am. I'm doing quite a lucrative one this afternoon actually. Never had a lesson, never learnt any theory, and certainly never paid "ridiculous amounts of money" to be told I have to sound like everyone else on the converyor belt. [/quote] Firstly congrats. Secondly, i can't comment on you or how you play because i don't know you. Most guys who do a lot of top sessions such as laurence cottle, know lots of theory. And to be at his level of expertise when I'm 50 is something i aspire to. [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330000190' post='1551062'] You have completely missed the point. I can play Chris Squire's lines, you can, but you or I could NOT have created them. If you have no musical ideas, or only naive ones, in your soul, it doesn't matter how well you can play does it? You should stop judging musicians on their psychomotor skills and get the the heart of the art. [/quote] i think musical ideas are a combination of things you've listened to previously and things you know and understand on your freeboard. I definitely don't believe music comes from the soul! Just sounds like hippy bollocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330002480' post='1551132'] Hey.I got back last weekend. [/quote] Welcome back. Back to OP - i think there are great bass players across all ages and genres of music. We don't all like the same thing but hey, so what my dad can beat your dad up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330002593' post='1551138'] i agree completely. Trouble is bands are finding it harder and harder to get sustained success in todays industry [/quote] Not really, it's always been very hard. Bands are at the mercy of markets and lowest common denominators of public acceptance. However, the public and musicians have far more power now due to recent communications technology advances. Unfortunately money is still the key to breaking through from small time success to great success, bands need marketing budget and infrastructure, this is where I think the record companies will find their new niche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330003114' post='1551153'] Firstly congrats. Secondly, i can't comment on you or how you play because i don't know you. Most guys who do a lot of top sessions such as laurence cottle, know lots of theory. And to be at his level of expertise when I'm 50 is something i aspire to. i think musical ideas are a combination of things you've listened to previously and things you know and understand on your freeboard. I definitely don't believe music comes from the soul! Just sounds like hippy bollocks [/quote] So what you've just written is a combination of things you've read previously and things you know and understand on your keyboard? Hippy bollocks? You have no ideas of your own you want to express through your instrument? You have no message for the people? You have no soapbox to stand on? Nothing to say at all? Just a combination of external influences and some fretboard skills. Pity you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='risingson' timestamp='1330002573' post='1551136'] No, they probably couldn't. And the reason is that good music transcends good technique and good playing. Technique is not synonymous with musicianship, it's not measurable by the amount of time you've put into learning how to play with impeccable timing and with good theoretical technique. That's what everyone who champions the 'pros' and rubbishes the likes of smaller time bass players don't understand. I went to music school too, but they never taught me this, everyone was just too occupied with technique and theory. I just had to learn it for myself. [/quote] I'm saying you need a combination of technique, theory and musicianship to be as good as the kids i saw playing last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330002231' post='1551126'] Tell that to any of the thousands of guys who have made a good long term living from music without being a songwriter.In those cases,technical ability and general musical knowledge is far more important. Likewise,there are thousands of people who write songs of varying quality and have never been able to make a living from it. [/quote] But without song writers musicians like yourself would have nothing to play. Also I know that should I live that long, I'll still be earning money from my song writing long after my back has given out and my hands are too arthritic to play my guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330003265' post='1551164'] Not really, it's always been very hard. Bands are at the mercy of markets and lowest common denominators of public acceptance. However, the public and musicians have far more power now due to recent communications technology advances. Unfortunately money is still the key to breaking through from small time success to great success, bands need marketing budget and infrastructure, this is where I think the record companies will find their new niche. [/quote] major record companies aren't taking risks with bands like they used to. To get with a major record label as a band you need to have already achieved a good level of success. Ed Sheeran being a good example. [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330003491' post='1551177'] So what you've just written is a combination of things you've read previously and things you know and understand on your keyboard? Hippy bollocks? You have no ideas of your own you want to express through your instrument? You have no message for the people? You have no soapbox to stand on? Nothing to say at all? Just a combination of external influences and some fretboard skills. Pity you. [/quote] You say pity me but i enjoy what i do and thats enough for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldslapper Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330003114' post='1551153'] Just sounds like hippy bollocks [/quote] Oh not another player I've not heard of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330003114' post='1551153'] Most guys who do a lot of top sessions such as laurence cottle, know lots of theory. And to be at his level of expertise when I'm 50 is something i aspire to. [/quote] Well, I wish you all the best with that. Cottle is a phenomenal player. I'm nothing special, and certainly have never had the discipline with the instrument that you appear to have. I've just been playing a long time & know some people in studios. It's never going to make me rich or a household name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330003528' post='1551179'] I'm saying you need a combination of technique, theory and musicianship to be as good as the kids i saw playing last night. [/quote] These things are nice things to have, absolutely. The first two things aren't the stuff that gets you by when you're playing in a band. The last one is. Plus a bunch of other things you have to know to maximise your audience. You mentioned wanting to be like Laurence Cottle when you get older. Well, what about Pino Palladino? Heaps of technique, musically brilliant, the most in demand bass player on the planet right now (supposedly one of the highest paid too), having played across a wide genre of rock, pop, jazz, hip hop, soul, fusion. And by his own admission, never a theoretical genius and not a competent reader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330003647' post='1551186'] But without song writers musicians like yourself would have nothing to play. Also I know that should I live that long, I'll still be earning money from my song writing long after my back has given out and my hands are too arthritic to play my guitar. [/quote] True..... But,I personally know waaaaay more people that earn a living from playing than I do from songwriting.Even guys who have written big hits have to play (or take other jobs),to make a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330003730' post='1551190'] major record companies aren't taking risks with bands like they used to. To get with a major record label as a band you need to have already achieved a good level of success. Ed Sheeran being a good example. [/quote] Ed Sheeran was playing outside one of my gigs 2 years ago. Look at him now. You know why? He has broad appeal, looks interesting, and worked his balls off. He also relates his feelings through well written lyrics matched with music he feels is right. You'll probably say that's just hippy bollocks. [quote] You say pity me but I enjoy what I do and that's enough for me [/quote] Good for you. Just don't slag off musicians who really feel their music is ethereal, that it comes both from within and from without, that it's like god touched you when it all goes right and magic happened, whether on your own or with your band, you truly communicated and people responded. Don't slag off musicians who think music is more than a technical and theoretical challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.