dlloyd Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330003730' post='1551190'] major record companies aren't taking risks with bands like they used to. To get with a major record label as a band you need to have already achieved a good level of success.[/quote] They never did take risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1330004449' post='1551221'] They never did take risks. [/quote] I think he means that there are no hippy bollocks record companies around any more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrene Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1329995108' post='1550912'] By strange coincidence, I found an envelope stuffed into my letterbox this morning. It contained a transcript of some off-mike dialogue during the most recent U2 recording session. [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] i just laughd out loud in the library. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1330004449' post='1551221'] They never did take risks. [/quote] I must admit i wasn't around then and my only reference to what it was like is from the experiences of those who have taught me and from what i've read in books and online articles. What they've all seemed to say is that the record labels spent more money on developing artists whereas these days they don't want to do that so the only sign ready made products. And going back to hippy bollocks. What happens when your inspiration (from the soul) runs out but you've been booked into the studio for beyonce's latest record and you only have 3 takes to record it? Edited February 23, 2012 by blackmn90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330005745' post='1551265'] I must admit i was around then and my only reference to what it was like is from the experiences of those who have taught me and from what i've read in books and online articles. What they've all seemed to say is that the record labels spent more money on developing artists whereas these days they don't want to do that so the only sign ready made products. [b]And going back to hippy bollocks. What happens when your inspiration (from the soul) runs out but you've been booked into the studio for beyonce's latest record and you only have 3 takes to record it?[/b] [/quote] I turn up and play what I've been told to play, and do it with style, feeling and panache, in one take. Did I really answer such a ridiculous question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330005745' post='1551265'] [b]I must admit i was around then and my only reference to what it was like is from the experiences of those who have taught me and from what i've read in books and online articles. What they've all seemed to say is that the record labels spent more money on developing artists whereas these days they don't want to do that so the only sign ready made products.[/b] And going back to hippy bollocks. What happens when your inspiration (from the soul) runs out but you've been booked into the studio for beyonce's latest record and you only have 3 takes to record it? [/quote] Where on earth do you get this from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330002231' post='1551126'] Tell that to any of the thousands of guys who have made a good long term living from music without being a songwriter.In those cases,technical ability and general musical knowledge is far more important. Likewise,there are thousands of people who write songs of varying quality and have never been able to make a living from it. [/quote] Doddy's back! Quick, everyone pretend to be studying their theory again! Hope you had a great time when you were away. Welcome back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99ster Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Panamonte' timestamp='1329921649' post='1549780'] +1. Good call. [/quote] +100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330006138' post='1551274'] I turn up and play what I've been told to play, and do it with style, feeling and panache, in one take. Did I really answer such a ridiculous question? [/quote] what if they want some funk thing in A minor? If you don't have any stylistic awareness then how are going to know that they want something most likely 8th or 16th note based and probably using A dorian and chromatics? Your making it sound like you think you don't need to know because you've got something in your soul that makes you a good player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330006192' post='1551277'] Where on earth do you get this from? [/quote] edited to say i wasn't around, TYPO please forgive me. I've read the Ann Harrison music business book, Bobby Owswinski music business book, i have many great and experienced lecturers, and have had lots of business orientated guest lectures from people who have retired from working for record labels or who still do. It's something i have great interest in and this is what i have been told from them. Sorry if i believe their opinions over someone i don't know on a bass forum, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330007455' post='1551315'] what if they want some funk thing in A minor? If you don't have any stylistic awareness then how are going to know that they want something most likely 8th or 16th note based and probably using A dorian and chromatics? Your making it sound like you think you don't need to know because you've got something in your soul that makes you a good player. [/quote] Who says playing with soul negates any theoretical or technical knowledge? I don't believe in any etherial soul, btw, but by the term I refer to the creative spark that leads to good music which some people have, and some people don't. I don't think it's something you can teach, either. Edited February 23, 2012 by Wil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330007455' post='1551315'] what if they want some funk thing in A minor? If you don't have any stylistic awareness then how are going to know that they want something most likely 8th or 16th note based and probably using A dorian and chromatics? Your making it sound like you think you don't need to know because you've got something in your soul that makes you a good player. [/quote] I think you labour under the misapprehension that Beyonce's songs come from jams or something. They are very carefully crafted and refined before anyone gets near a studio. Also, I don't want to be a session musician, I like being in bands. The bands I'm in are quite demanding, especially the sitarist. I have to compose and improvise meaningful guitar pieces, in complex time signatures like 13/4, often requiring me to stick strictly to something like phrygian with no non-diatonic passing notes or chords, often with many structural rules and requirements she imposes from Indian classical music, as the piece progresses. But I approach it from what I feel in my heart, not from theory, I don't know much theory, or the notes on the fingerboard. It's not easy, but it is immensly rewarding and humbling when the magic happens on stage, or in the studio. Edited February 23, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329998799' post='1551019'] Imagine your a session player. [/quote] [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1329999952' post='1551054'] I am. I'm doing quite a lucrative one this afternoon actually. Never had a lesson, never learnt any theory, and certainly never paid "ridiculous amounts of money" to be told I have to sound like everyone else on the converyor belt. [/quote] Me too (however, I do teach!) +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1330008166' post='1551327'] Who says playing with soul negates any theoretical or technical knowledge? [/quote] thats just the impression i got from siddx's points [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330008435' post='1551333'] I think you labour under the misapprehension that Beyonce's songs come from jams or something. They are very carefully crafted and refined before anyone gets near a studio. Also, I don't want to be a session musician, I like being in bands. The bands I'm in are quite demanding, especially the sitarist. I have to compose and improvise meaningful guitar pieces, in complex time signatures like 13/4, often requiring me to stick strictly to something like phrygian with no non-diatonic passing notes or chords, often with many structural rules and requirements she imposes from Indian classical music, as the piece progresses. But I approach it from what I feel in my heart, not from theory, I don't know much theory, or the notes on the fingerboard. It's not easy, but it is immensly rewarding and humbling when the magic happens on stage, or in the studio. [/quote] i only chose beyonce because its a big name and they would be a lot of pressure to get it right. And there are still records by artists such as beyonce that are written by musicians jamming stuff out. I play for a new indie label and to start off we played what was written but we then found if we jam a song with the band and then the mc or vocalist can freestyle over the top and get some ideas. Interestingly i watch a documentary on Guy Chambers and Mark Ronson collaborating to write an artist a new song. They did via jamming. Also bruno mars was in a group of musicians that wrote Cee Lo Greens album. At the end of the day all that matters is that you get the results for what you need. I'm just saying imo one day that will let you down if you didn't have some theory. Which you seem to have anyway...... I stand by my belief that "music from the heart is hippy bollocks" and your not going to change that. End of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It's all about emotion. Music done right moves people, and technical correctness doesnt necessarily equal a moving performance, it's all down to the note choice and feel of the musician playing the part and how they react to what they hear. You can approach music from a purely technical aspect, sure, but if you don't feel emotionally affected by what you play first and foremost then I doubt your audience will either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330013182' post='1551434'] I stand by my belief that "music from the heart is hippy bollocks" and your not going to change that. End of [/quote] How do you know what you are saying through your music then? How do you enjoy music? Do you get any emotional reaction to music, or do you simply analyse it? How do you discern whether a performance is good or bad or meaningful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1330014014' post='1551461'] It's all about emotion. Music done right moves people, and technical correctness doesnt necessarily equal a moving performance, it's all down to the note choice and feel of the musician playing the part and how they react to what they hear. You can approach music from a purely technical aspect, sure, but if you don't feel emotionally affected by what you play first and foremost then I doubt your audience will either. [/quote] [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330014345' post='1551466'] How do you know what you are saying through your music then? How do you enjoy music? Do you get any emotional reaction to music, or do you simply analyse it? How do you discern whether a performance is good or bad or meaningful? [/quote] In answer to both. When i watch a performance i am watching the body language and listening for articulation and dynamics. The combination of these 3 things is what i think expresses musicality and what i see as the difference between a good performer and someone who's not quite there yet. I work on all 3 of these so i can put across what i guess can be described as a simulation of emotion. Say i'm playing a song that was written about pain; despite the fact i am loving the performance i can still get the idea of pain across using the combination of the 3 things suggested before. Same if i'm really not enjoying the gig i will play and have the body language to suggest i am. It's all fake but importantly its consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330015343' post='1551498'] In answer to both. When i watch a performance i am watching the body language and listening for articulation and dynamics. The combination of these 3 things is what i think expresses musicality and what i see as the difference between a good performer and someone who's not quite there yet. I work on all 3 of these so i can put across what i guess can be described as a simulation of emotion. Say i'm playing a song that was written about pain; despite the fact i am loving the performance i can still get the idea of pain across using the combination of the 3 things suggested before. Same if i'm really not enjoying the gig i will play and have the body language to suggest i am. It's all fake but importantly its consistent. [/quote] Interesting. What I'm getting is that you seem to be able to technically analyse a combination of body language, articulation and dynamics and ascertain whether that music reflects a theme or emotion. It sounds very cold and mathematical. Can you really do this, or is it something you wish to be able to do? How do you approach writing bass lines or music? If your bandleader came to a rehearsal with a new song, how would you create a bass line for it? Edited February 23, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329999639' post='1551041'] I had a lesson with steve lawson who IMO is a great virtuoso of the electric bass. i was amazed with how strong he sounded when playing simple lines, much cleaner and clinical than the older guys did. [/quote] This willl probably get lost in the "Silddx Onslaught" but it is an interesting point which has caused me much frustration - what is it a really good player can play something stupidly simple like 8th notes on the 5th fret but it sounds so much better than me playing exactly the same thing. I looked at technique ( which contributes t it ) but TBH my technique is quite othodox. Then it hit me someone like Steve ( who I've also had lessons with ) is playing from inside him , not in some mystical sense but its just more confident and self assured than someone like me. Just as in the same way as me speaking in front of a crowd is going to sound better if I sound conficent rather than speak in a thin wobbly voice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330015709' post='1551504'] Interesting. How do you approach writing bass lines or music? If your bandleader came to a rehearsal with a new song, how would you create a bass line for it? [/quote] It really depends on the music. I normally start by listening to a drum loop or pattern then get some rhythmic ideas form that. If thats not available then i will create something that will fit the genre the band leader is aiming to create. For example a lot of female songwriters i work with write a ballad with just piano and vocals. Then they say "i want it funkier." So i add rhythms i find interesting (i believe these are a combination of ideas my brain has retained from listening/ playing to music and things in everyday life). Harmonically usually from chord tones and scale. I get idea's on how to use them effectively be analysing the content that other players have played and just play what fits the chords and melody. I guess i take a very scientific view to music and I'm the same way in life in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1330016345' post='1551514'] This willl probably get lost in the "Silddx Onslaught" but it is an interesting point which has caused me much frustration - what is it a really good player can play something stupidly simple like 8th notes on the 5th fret but it sounds so much better than me playing exactly the same thing. I looked at technique ( which contributes t it ) but TBH my technique is quite othodox. Then it hit me someone like Steve ( who I've also had lessons with ) is playing from inside him , not in some mystical sense but its just more confident and self assured than someone like me. Just as in the same way as me speaking in front of a crowd is going to sound better if I sound conficent rather than speak in a thin wobbly voice [/quote] This is what I'm talking about. Every note is important, every note should have a reason and contribute to the whole. Every note or phrase you play should be felt and articulated. Good technique and confidence is what really helps here, along with knowing WHY you are playing that note or phrase. Can you sit and play one note repeating at one tempo and get deep inside them? If you do that for a while, you'll notice that same note is different every time, you can control those differences, and if you know why you are playing a note and what you want it to do, you can express something much more fluid and communicative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1330016345' post='1551514'] This willl probably get lost in the "Silddx Onslaught" but it is an interesting point which has caused me much frustration - what is it a really good player can play something stupidly simple like 8th notes on the 5th fret but it sounds so much better than me playing exactly the same thing. I looked at technique ( which contributes t it ) but TBH my technique is quite othodox. Then it hit me someone like Steve ( who I've also had lessons with ) is playing from inside him , not in some mystical sense but its just more confident and self assured than someone like me. Just as in the same way as me speaking in front of a crowd is going to sound better if I sound conficent rather than speak in a thin wobbly voice [/quote] actually i didn't consider confidence, good point. I think this changes a lot of things. But it is easier to be confident when you know you have the knowhow on how to make sure you can cover up mistakes or turn mistakes into something new. I believe having really strong theory can help in those situations as you know musically when its a good time to come back in and how you can make it sound cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330016477' post='1551520'] It really depends on the music. I normally start by listening to a drum loop or pattern then get some rhythmic ideas form that. If thats not available then i will create something that will fit the genre the band leader is aiming to create. For example a lot of female songwriters i work with write a ballad with just piano and vocals. Then they say "i want it funkier." So i add rhythms i find interesting (i believe these are a combination of ideas my brain has retained from listening/ playing to music and things in everyday life). Harmonically usually from chord tones and scale. I get idea's on how to use them effectively be analysing the content that other players have played and just play what fits the chords and melody. [b]I guess i take a very scientific view to music and I'm the same way in life in general.[/b] [/quote] I think you're right. It's not the only way though. I would guess you are quite young too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Interesting approach. I'd rather listen to the music and feel it. The whole reason for having a solid theoretical knowledge is that it should be internalised so that you can just play without thinking about it,yet it is always there in your subconcious and helping to make life easier for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330016956' post='1551534'] I think you're right. It's not the only way though. I would guess you are quite young too? [/quote] 21 so not really what i would call young [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330016999' post='1551535'] Interesting approach. I'd rather listen to the music and feel it. The whole reason for having a solid theoretical knowledge is that it should be internalised so that you can just play without thinking about it,yet it is always there in your subconcious and helping to make life easier for you. [/quote] The trouble is Doddy is a lot of the music i get in a studio environment is very undeveloped. But in the jam situation a lot of what i play is what i have been practising in a similar unconscious method to what you describe. Which is why i practise a lot so that i have many choices wherever i am on the bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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