What is wrong with modern bassists?

[jc_riffs]

I'll 2nd that mr capleton!

[risingson]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1329926638' post='1549886']
Following on from Nige, is the real problem with modern bass players not the fact that we're discussing them on a bass players forum?
[/quote]

We're hobbyists, aren't we? A lot of us play professionally or semi-professionally, but in the same way that a lot of people who are interested in cars are also interested in Ferraris or Michael Schumacher, so it is that many of us are impressed by a Fodera or Victor Wooten. But then there will always be people who will insist that their Morris Minor did just as good a job, and that the imperfections of its motor are far more interesting than the perfection of a Ferrari V8. And the world keeps on turning either way.

[quote name='jc_riffs' timestamp='1329926864' post='1549891'] I'll 2nd that mr capleton! [/quote]

Tar lar

Edited February 22, 2012 by risingson

[Cat Burrito]

Is the Brits still going?

[markstuk]

The fact there are Morris Marina and Austin Allegro collectors clubs sort of reinforces this :-)


[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329927025' post='1549894']
We're hobbyists, aren't we? A lot of us play professionally or semi-professionally, but in the same way that a lot of people who are interested in cars are also interested in Ferraris or Michael Schumacher, so it is that many of us are impressed by a Fodera or Victor Wooten. But then there will always be people who will insist that their Morris Minor did just as good a job, and that the imperfections of its motor are far more interesting than the perfection of a Ferrari V8. And the world keeps on turning either way.



Tar lar
[/quote]

[RockfordStone]

i think people get caught up analysing a muso's quality by how flash they are. people will rave on about how great flea is based on the fact he can dance around the fretboard, but will not use for example hugh mcdonald who has held together bon jovis rhythm for the last few years.

the bass is fundamentaly a rhythm instrument, and for me the sign of a good bassist is one who keeps tight with the drums and drives the song, and is able to use his instrument to add to the song from there.

just because bassists such as taka hirose or alex james keep it simple, it doesn't make them any less good at what they do than jaco or geddy....

[xilddx]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329926726' post='1549889']
I have stated time and time again that if the music sounds good, then the bass player (or indeed any musician in the band) has done his or her job properly. The consistent moaning about Adam Clayton only playing 8th notes for example. I'm not the biggest U2 fan in the world and I never will be, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that they must be doing something right because their music sounds good, even to me if I'm completely honest. And to a lot of other people (millions of other people in fact), their music sounds [u]brilliant[/u].

Bottom line, if brilliant music is made with a bass player playing note perfect 16ths or very imperfect and out-of-time quarter notes, then the bass player has done his job correctly. People that try and argue otherwise are the types of people usually unable to look at the larger musical picture.
[/quote]

Exactly.

[BottomE]

A sea of opinions. Thats all this is. And heres mine...

i think that players are technically more together these days than in the past. Some local bands have some great young players who i think have more to offer than Jack Bruce. But they should be better players. Equipment is fantastic now, internet courses, you tube, tabs, free resources etc etc.

When i were a young'un i was taping the "Top 40" on a Sunday night and then trying to learn lines from a piddly mono tape deck - no looping or anything like that. Thats why i am sh*te. Kids have no excuse these days

[woodyratm]

[quote name='achknalligewelt' timestamp='1329920580' post='1549751']
I know this might be a contentious question, but hear me out.

I have just read the thread discussing Blur's perfomance at the Brits last night. I didn't see it, but I gathered from reports today that it was pretty messy. The post on Basschat bore that out, but it also has quite a lot of people criticising Alex James as a player.

I'll stand up now and say that I think he's a great player, but that's not quite the point I want to make. Because other names were thrown up as unremarkable, such as Mick Quinn of Supergrass and Mat Osman of Suede. I think they're great, too, playing excellent and fitting lines in some great songs.

But the more I read Basschat, I find the conversation dominated either by the classic rock basists of the 60's and 70's, such as Geddy Lee and John-Paul Jones, or super-duper bass soloists, like Victor Wooten or Jaco Pastorius. Where is the flattering reference to Mike Mills? Colin Greenwood? Or even Andy Rourke? Are these players genuinely inferior to the giant rock players of the 1970's? And if so, why?

I'd also like to say that I am not attacking the canon of leading bassists, nor those who admire them. I was called a troll on a post here a while back for a passing criticism of John Entwistle, and I don't want to raise hackles. But why are more recent bass players so readily ignored or criticised on these pages? What's wrong with them?
[/quote]

Colin Greenwood is pretty ace. I rate him pretty highly.

I just think he's outshined by his brother!

[Cyrene]

[quote name='woodyratm' timestamp='1329928068' post='1549915']
Colin Greenwood is pretty ace. I rate him pretty highly.

I just think he's outshined by his brother!
[/quote]
I like Alex James' lines. I think Colin (& Johnny) Greenwood are ace too. Joanna Bolme is fantastsic.
I'm no old crusty and having been to a thousand jazz gigs where ultra competent players convey zero message I'm more than happy to listen to a good bassist that's works within the context their band are striving for. I don't see it as a generational thing or one of 'modernity'; some 70s bands exhibited similar characteristics to what folk are arguing about on here.
Personally, I'm no Jaco fan; self indulgent w***.

[Bilbo]

I think we are missing some of the dynamics of the forum here.

Firstly, there are as many as 5 generations of players on here. Kids of 15, students 25, pros in their thirties, old pros in their forties, new starters in their 50s and even a couple of 60+ year olds. Then there are the dozens of genres represented here, the gear nuts and the 'one bass fits all' brigade, double bassists and ERB fans. In order to have some common ground for discussion, it is likely that we will talk about the most influential players be it Jaco, Flea or young Hendrick. Most of us know the top ten of each generation or favourite genre whereas few of us will know the next 20 of each others generation or genre.

Secondly, a lot a great players have long careers and as many people will buy the next Rush CD as they will the latest Professor Green CD so the influence of a player is not as closely linked to the 'era' in which they 'arrived' as we may think. So talking about Geddy Lee, Dave Holland or John Patitucci's recent work is not just nostalgia but also about following the career of an established artist

Thirdly, many of us like the bass player that plays with the bands we like and see qualities in them that those who don't like that band, genre will miss.

Fourthly, some folk are looking for innovation and technical excellence from bass players whilst others are looking for great songs where the bass playing is incidental. Geddy Lee's playing, whatever else it is, is exceptional whereas 99% of us could play Adam Clayton's lines so, when it is time to talk about something interesting, it is the exceptional that gets attention.

Fifthly (I have never got to fifthly before. How exciting), there are those that develop a skill by the application of effort and study (say Manring or Anthony Jackson, Stuart Zender or Bill Sheehan) and there are those who, it would appear to most of us, learn to do what they do in a more 'organic way' (Lemmy, Steve Dawson (Saxon), Nikki Sixx, Sid Vicious, Peter Hook etc). A lot of pop bassists 'have' great feel and great sounds because they are ghosted on CD or run 1000 takes before getting a good one and actually can't play that well in any real sense. So those in the know are less inclined to extol their virtues or get excited about their skills. My simple perspective is that, if I can play it, it can't be hard so I am not that interested For me, a lot of great groove players in popular music are that by accident and good luck to them.

Modern players take time to filter out inot mainstream listening. You get something exceptional (Dirty Loops?) and it goes viral. Something more mundane like an innocuous pop single by a band that appeals to teenagers is not going to get the attention for the wider community. Where players are concerned, most bands in most generations are not producing anything new. What did Oasis offer, in musical terms, that The Damned didn't or Big Country or Jesse J. DuM dum dum dum dum dum dum bass lines with three fills per tune are not going to generate a debate. Blur's material is not musically excpetional enough to get a lot of non Blur fan players on board whereas Manring is going to get noticed.

[Clarky]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1329921171' post='1549773']
So I'll throw my hat in the ring and say let's hear it for Martyn P Casey from The Triffids, Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds and Grinderman. Great melodic and supportive lines that I could sit looping for hours on end.
[/quote]
Absolutely. I've started threadfs on this guy before. He doesn't play anything technical and I bet 90%+ of BC'ers could replicate his lines without any real difficulty. But his lines work so well in the song context and are often very melodic, even if simple. Think Red Right Hand, Do you Love Me, Stagger Lee etc. Just brilliant.

[Steve G]

Should I be embarrassed that I don't know most of the people you lot are on about? I'll have to get educated!

At the end of the day, for me, music is good or bad on how it feels to me, not if it's a particular genre etc. example, metallica and megadeth are always seen as being head to head (at least in the last century) but I love one and can take or leave the other. Why? I couldn't tell you but supposedly they're similiar bands.. Same as the likes of Zeppelin and early Whitesnake etc just don't click for me. couldn't say whether they're great musicians or not.

Each to their own really, like what you like and let others enjoy the rubbish they listen to

Edited February 22, 2012 by Steve G

[Mog]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1329926331' post='1549876']
It's because for all the yap yap people spout on Basschat, most people can only really differentiate between simple bassists and complicated bassists. Much of the subtlety of the simple bassline, nuance, space, composition, etc is lost on most people. It is for most instruments. Music is about FEELING, not analysing core competencies of each band member in isolation.

[/quote]

I agree the second half Nige but I dont get what you mean by simple bassists and complicated bassists. Some of the most complex passages I can think of have turned out to be relatively simple ideas or phrases reworked into something that seems complicated once I broke them down. I sure this is the case for most.

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1329927266' post='1549901']
i think people get caught up analysing a muso's quality by how flash they are. people will rave on about how great flea is based on the fact he can dance around the fretboard, but will not use for example hugh mcdonald who has held together bon jovis rhythm for the last few years.

the bass is fundamentaly a rhythm instrument, and for me the sign of a good bassist is one who keeps tight with the drums and drives the song, and is able to use his instrument to add to the song from there.

just because bassists such as taka hirose or alex james keep it simple, it doesn't make them any less good at what they do than jaco or geddy....
[/quote]
That was one of my points over on the other thread. Theres plenty of names this applies to. Tom Hamilton, Pat Badger etc

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329926726' post='1549889']
I have stated time and time again that if the music sounds good, then the bass player (or indeed any musician in the band) has done his or her job properly. The consistent moaning about Adam Clayton only playing 8th notes for example. I'm not the biggest U2 fan in the world and I never will be, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that they must be doing something right because their music sounds good, even to me if I'm completely honest. And to a lot of other people (millions of other people in fact), their music sounds [u]brilliant[/u].

Bottom line, if brilliant music is made with a bass player playing note perfect 16ths or very imperfect and out-of-time quarter notes, then the bass player has done his job correctly. People that try and argue otherwise are the types of people usually unable to look at the larger musical picture.
[/quote]

Sums it up nicely really.

[Immo]

In the base of the problem lie the two opposite ways of thinking among bassists.
It is not uncommon that the older ones think that bass player should stand in the rear part of the stage and 'fill the bottom part' of the music. [i]No solos, no smiling, just listen to the drummer and shut up![/i]
On the opposite side there are guys who have seen Claypool or Flea and want to stand on the bass drum in weird outfit, do the solos and play ridiculous lines.

Each group will show their idols representing those two different stances and point them out as a fine example of bass players. In the meantime, the modern players usually are something in between the opposites - they do their 'bottom part' job and also want 'something for themselves' from the show, while for both groups pointing the modern bass players out as examples of fine players seems to be a bit [i]passée [/i]these days. Among the musicians the stereotype of today's music being 'pop' (in the means of being conformist, appealing to the masses etc.) or some sorts of genres considered slightly disgraceful lives on.
The missed point is, that most of today's players ALSO 'want something for themselves from the show'!

Of course I'm generalising, but I've witnessed this while reading forum threads and talking about bass players with my friends.

[4000]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329926726' post='1549889']
I have stated time and time again that if the music sounds good, then the bass player (or indeed any musician in the band) has done his or her job properly. The consistent moaning about Adam Clayton only playing 8th notes for example. I'm not the biggest U2 fan in the world and I never will be, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that they must be doing something right because their music sounds good, even to me if I'm completely honest. And to a lot of other people (millions of other people in fact), their music sounds [u]brilliant[/u].

Bottom line, if brilliant music is made with a bass player playing note perfect 16ths or very imperfect and out-of-time quarter notes, then the bass player has done his job correctly. People that try and argue otherwise are the types of people usually unable to look at the larger musical picture.
[/quote]

And a huge, fat, enormous +1 to that. Well said indeed!

[discreet]

[quote name='Immo' timestamp='1329935281' post='1550058']
[i]No solos, no smiling, just listen to the drummer and shut up![/i]
[/quote]

Excellent advice!

[chris_b]

[quote name='achknalligewelt' timestamp='1329920580' post='1549751']
....it also has quite a lot of people criticising Alex James as a player....
[/quote]
Alexs James is OK. He plays in time and doesn't play bum notes.

[icastle]

[quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1329925021' post='1549852']
But then, nobody's heard of Liam O'Brien, a 24 year old hip hop bass player from Cheshire have they?
[/quote]

Nope, and the only reason I've heard of Wooten, Pastorious and Geddy Lee is because people on here keep intimating that I'm a heretic for not falling to my knees whenever their names are mentioned.

[OliverBlackman]

there is nothing wrong! Just got back from w3 and JUST WOW! These guys are all between 17 and 25 and they have more talent than most of the old timers!

I think its just that rock bores most competent players and so they move on to jazz, funk, neo soul, gospel ect.

[risingson]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329959422' post='1550591']
[b]I think its just that rock bores most competent players[/b] and so they move on to jazz, funk, neo soul, gospel ect.
[/quote]

Classic sweeping statement if ever there was one. I'd be interested to know what you're basing this on?

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329959632' post='1550592']
Classic sweeping statement if ever there was one. I'd be interested to know what you're basing this on?
[/quote]

i do mean in general terms, I'm not saying that rock bassists are incompetent. But from guys i know, most would rather play the chicken than enter sandman.

[OliverBlackman]

also if you've put a lot of time and effort into learning the chops needed to be a good jazz player, you naturally want to show them off, something that is rarely done on bass in rock music.

[Lozz196]

I think it depends on what you see the basses role is, in the context of each specific band.

As said, Adam claytons playing works in U2. Would his style have helped The Jam? probably not. Red Hot Chillies - again, probably not.

It also depends on what other instruments are in the band. I joined a 3-piece punk band in the 80s, and as the guitarist was also the singer, I had a lot of melodies/cross-runs, to fill the sound out. But, when new material was being written, and it was decided that another guitar was necessary, the complicated lines that filled the songs out in a 3-piece just durged the songs with another guitar present, so I had to simplify them.

So really, the competency of the bassist (and all musicians) is also about playing what is right for the band setup/specific song.

[Toasted]

[quote name='achknalligewelt' timestamp='1329920580' post='1549751']
I know this might be a contentious question, but hear me out.

I have just read the thread discussing Blur's perfomance at the Brits last night. I didn't see it, but I gathered from reports today that it was pretty messy. The post on Basschat bore that out, but it also has quite a lot of people criticising Alex James as a player.

I'll stand up now and say that I think he's a great player, but that's not quite the point I want to make. Because other names were thrown up as unremarkable, such as Mick Quinn of Supergrass and Mat Osman of Suede. I think they're great, too, playing excellent and fitting lines in some great songs.

But the more I read Basschat, I find the conversation dominated either by the classic rock basists of the 60's and 70's, such as Geddy Lee and John-Paul Jones, or super-duper bass soloists, like Victor Wooten or Jaco Pastorius. Where is the flattering reference to Mike Mills? Colin Greenwood? Or even Andy Rourke? Are these players genuinely inferior to the giant rock players of the 1970's? And if so, why?

I'd also like to say that I am not attacking the canon of leading bassists, nor those who admire them. I was called a troll on a post here a while back for a passing criticism of John Entwistle, and I don't want to raise hackles. But why are more recent bass players so readily ignored or criticised on these pages? What's wrong with them?
[/quote]

It's an age thing. The core of Basschat regular posters is dominated by the 40-60 age bracket.

[Clarky]

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1329983200' post='1550658']
It's an age thing. The core of Basschat regular posters is dominated by the 40-60 age bracket.
[/quote]
I ran a poll on this a couple of years ago at which time the biggest faction on BassChat was 40-49 year olds but there were plenty (>40%) below 40. However there very few below 20

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/84782-how-old-are-you/page__st__100__p__816917__hl__how%20old%20clarky__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/84782-how-old-are-you/page__st__100__p__816917__hl__how%20old%20clarky__fromsearch__1[/url]