What is wrong with modern bassists?

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1329981024' post='1550644']

So really, the competency of the bassist (and all musicians) is also about playing what is right for the band setup/specific song.
[/quote]

Well said sir!

Sadly, it would appear that competency is often measured by complexity. I guess some people are mesmerised by the "pretty lights..oooooh".
I read posts on these topics and think some people wouldn't be satisfied unless Alex James did two hand tap arpeggios throughout "Park Life"......cue the "he couldn't if he tried" jibes. Sadly I've never met him, or heard him play in private, so I don't know whether he could or not.

[kerley]

It is like any job in a way. Some people could do much more with their job/life than they do but settle at a certain level (I am definitely in this group!)

Adam Clayton is presumably happy enough to play the role he does and maybe doesn't want to go into other fields. That doesn't mean he can't or couldn't play more technically and creatively challenging music. Who knows, in 4 years time you may see a Clayton covers Pastorious album...

[ead]

Nostagia is not what it used to be

[4000]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329959422' post='1550591']
there is nothing wrong! Just got back from w3 and JUST WOW! These guys are all between 17 and 25 and they have more talent than most of the old timers!

I think its just that rock bores most competent players and so they move on to jazz, funk, neo soul, gospel ect.
[/quote]

????? I guess that depends on your definition of a competent player. To me it's someone who does the job required for the music, chops or no (see Risingson's earlier post). I think you'll actually find that many truly "competent players" (using what I suspect is your definition) are quite happy to play either; go and have a chat with Marco Mendoza for one.

[4000]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329960985' post='1550601']


But from guys i know, most would rather play the chicken than enter sandman.
[/quote]

The first part being the issue I suspect.

[Cairobill]

I think people who criticise rock and pop bassists have difficulty understanding the meaning of the word genre.

Colin Greenwood is a walking textbook of pop/rock style and plays what is right for each song that he records, down to a specific string, bass and amp.

To criticise him for not playing like a fusion player (or Mick from Supergrass who was half of one of the most dynamic rhythm sections of the britpop era) is nonsensical.

I would expect that most chopmeister bassists would produce ersatz mushy session drivel if ever called upon to play in any of the bands mentioned in this thread. It's simply not a genre they understand.

Also, just because something sounds easy doesn't mean it is.

[4000]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329961270' post='1550603']
also if you've put a lot of time and effort into learning the chops needed to be a good jazz player, you naturally want to show them off[/quote]

Ah, the sign of a mature musician....

[Gust0o]

I don't know why people think you can't show off in rock - what else is there to do?

I said to Nige I was tempted to post that Wooten was bollocks... Because, breaking the orthodoxy and being entirely subjective a moment, you wouldn't bang him on in the car

We do have a lot of hero worship - because chaps like Wooten have some tremendous skill, and a real affinity with their instruments. And, let's face it, we're the geekier end of the bass playing spectrum - we live in the detail and lap it up.

It shouldn't blind us to the fact that our musical tastes are more personal. There need be no worship at the altar of orthodoxy. If you're making good music with eighth notes, power to you!

[4000]

[quote name='Cairobill' timestamp='1329986376' post='1550712']
I think people who criticise rock and pop bassists have difficulty understanding the meaning of the word genre.

Colin Greenwood is a walking textbook of pop/rock style and plays what is right for each song that he records, down to a specific string, bass and amp.

To criticise him for not playing like a fusion player (or Mick from Supergrass who was half of one of the most dynamic rhythm sections of the britpop era) is nonsensical.

I would expect that most chopmeister bassists would produce ersatz mushy session drivel if ever called upon to play in any of the bands mentioned in this thread. It's simply not a genre they understand.

Also, just because something sounds easy doesn't mean it is.
[/quote]

+1. Ever tried playing a busy, intricate line in With Or Without You? Or Let There Be Rock? The song will fall apart. I can be a very busy player but have often ended up playing the simplest lines possible in some songs (bear in mind these are songs I've written too) simply because that's what works best.

One factor that is often forgotten is also how the sound you have influences what you play and vice versa. If you have a bloody huge sound, it's quite easy to play something simple and have the track sit on it. If you've got a thinner back-pickup-y sound, it may not work so well so you may want to start playing more to fill it out.

I remember once seeing Yolanda Charles (who I rate as a player) backing Paul Weller on something and I thought her sound and style didn't fit at all. IMO you should listen to the bass in the context of the music and not just in isolation.

I think another point that has been touched on is the assumption that because someone plays a particular style in a / their band, that's all they can play. Using a topical example, Matt Garrison backed Whitney Houston; however I suspect he left all his flash Matt Garrison-isms at home.

[4000]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1329986484' post='1550716']
I don't know why people think you can't show off in rock - what else is there to do?

[/quote]

Billy Sheehan and Joey Demaio spring to mind....

[shizznit]

Above all, as a bass player you need to be 'tight', 'rhythmical' and 'disciplined'. Style or technical ability doesn't comes into it much later. That's our job...the most important skills of any bass player and guess what?...most other musicians have that expectation from us in any genre of music. We are a part of the 'rhythm section'. Think carefully about those two words.

Okay, I will admit if I played for Coldplay, U2, Kings of Leon, Oasis etc... the gig would get a bit boring for me quite quickly, but at the end of the day I don't have gold disks decorating my hallway. What does that tell me?

[chris_b]

I'd love to be playing one note basslines in Coldplay, U2 or ZZ Top. Then I could concentrate on and finance my side projects during the months off.

Jazz players don't have to play jazz all the time, look at James Jamerson, Wilton Felder, Max Bennett and Carol Kaye. Their jazz was played after [i]work[/i]!

[leftyhook]

I would imagine a lot of players that some may consider' average', are in a band because they have the personality required to make things click.
who are we to question any SUCCESSFUL band's lin-up?

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1329985714' post='1550692']
????? I guess that depends on your definition of a competent player. To me it's someone who does the job required for the music, chops or no (see Risingson's earlier post). I think you'll actually find that many truly "competent players" (using what I suspect is your definition) are quite happy to play either; go and have a chat with Marco Mendoza for one.
[/quote]

When i think competent i mean someone who can do everything i cant do a few things i see as a good player:
Someone who knows the notes on the fretboard in real time
Someone with great time feel in a wide array of genres and can stand on their own two feet when a drummer takes off with poly rhythmic ideas.
Someone with great sense of harmony and knows when to super-impose, the avoid notes, improvising behind melodies without taking any power from it.

There are lots of very capable rock bassists, flea being a personal favourite. However, there are many who are not! Adam Clayton being well known for not having any knowledge of improvising around chords and the edge having to show him what to play.

Whereas, in gospel, jazz or latin jazz if your no good it really shows.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1329985821' post='1550695']
The first part being the issue I suspect.
[/quote]

I'm at a music school, have been for 3 years.
[quote name='4000' timestamp='1329986380' post='1550713']
Ah, the sign of a mature musician....
[/quote]

I said you naturally want to play them, the best musicians are those that wait until the time is right. All self control innit

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='kerley' timestamp='1329985004' post='1550677']
Adam Clayton is presumably happy enough to play the role he does and maybe doesn't want to go into other fields. That doesn't mean he can't or couldn't play more technically and creatively challenging music. [/quote]

By strange coincidence, I found an envelope stuffed into my letterbox this morning. It contained a transcript of some off-mike dialogue during the most recent U2 recording session.

[quote]Bono: ... and those poor wee babies. Me heart just melted so I got on the phone to...

Mullen: Dat Pope. And the nuns.

Edge: Are you done, guys? Adam - the chords are C - F - Bb. All the way through. Nice steady roots, please. I'll be doing a pattern...

Clayton: With lots of delay, right? Loads of fecking modulated delay going in fecking polychromatic fecking counterpoint bloody ping-pong from left to fecking right and fecking back again over a fecking 4/4 beat. There's a fecking surprise. (rolls eyes)

Edge: But...

Clayton: Just like every fecking song you've ever brought in. All this fecking chiming wash. Just because you can't fecking solo. Same reason you wear the fecking hat. It's not like you're bald or anything cos you aren't. There's hair under that fecking hat, Dave. You just need people wondering if you're bald to take their minds off the fact that YOU CAN'T FECKIN' PLAY.

(Wrestles guitar off Edge and whacks out some efficient jazz comping and a Wes Montgomery chord solo)

Clayton: There, you big fecking bollocks. Fecking do that. Go on, fecking do it!

Edge: Look, I...

Clayton: I've been teaching fusion jazz bass at Berklee for 15 years under an assumed fecking name just because you do this fecking echo sh*t and I have to sit on the fecking roots 1 feck 2 feck 3 feck 4 and no-one's supposed to know that fecking Wooten - WOOTEN FOR FECK'S SAKE - rang me up and said "Give us a lesson Ad. I'll pay you".

Bono: Those babies...

Clayton: Shut the feck up about the feckin' babies. There's fecking bass forums out there that think I'm a fecking gobsh*te from down the fecking country plays like a fecking turnip. And because they think I can't play they rip the feckin' piss out of my fecking signature basses.

Edge: I...

Clayton: Have you got a signature guitar Dave? Have you? HAVE YOU GOT A FECKING SIG GUITAR?

Bono: Babies...

Clayton: No. You haven't. And you know what? You haven't even got a signature fecking delay. Feck it. I'm off. First thing I'm doing, it's a fecking Jaco covers album and I'll rip him a new fecking arsehole and then we'll see who's a fecking root note plodder.

(Confused shouting, door slams). [/quote]

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Edited February 23, 2012 by skankdelvar

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1329995108' post='1550912']
By strange coincidence, I found an envelope stuffed into my letterbox this morning. It contained a transcript of some off-mike dialogue during the most recent U2 recording session.
[/quote]

[4000]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1329995108' post='1550912']


By strange coincidence, I found an envelope stuffed into my letterbox this morning. It contained a transcript of some off-mike dialogue during the most recent U2 recording session.



[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

Oh I wish I could use emoticons at work (no idea why I can't). Genius. As usual.

[xilddx]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329995260' post='1550915']

[/quote]

Seconded! HAHAHAHAA!

[mike257]

I was going to chime in with an unneccesary dose of opinion but I'm now too busy wetting myself laughing. As always, excellent work Skank!

[Earbrass]

Nice one Skank.

[RhysP]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329994510' post='1550895']
Someone with great time feel in a wide array of genres and can stand on their own two feet when a drummer takes off with poly rhythmic ideas.
[/quote]

That definition means that 99% of bass players, including all the ones regarded as "The Greats" are incompetent.
Chris Squire would be f***ing useless playing jazz or latin music, just as the vast majority of gospel players wouldn't have the first idea what to do in an industrial metal band.

Why do some people think bass players have to be masters of every genre or else they're rubbish?

I never hear guitarists slagging off BB King because his two handed tapping is sh*t, or saying that Martin Taylor or John Etheridge are crap because they can't play a convincing Country solo.

[Gust0o]

I don't think anyone need post any more here. It's all been said, and Al can now jump out to keep looking for his brother in Vietnam

[4000]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329994510' post='1550895']


When i think competent i mean someone who can do everything i cant do a few things i see as a good player:
Someone who knows the notes on the fretboard in real time
Someone with great time feel in a wide array of genres and can stand on their own two feet when a drummer takes off with poly rhythmic ideas.
Someone with great sense of harmony and knows when to super-impose, the avoid notes, improvising behind melodies without taking any power from it.

There are lots of very capable rock bassists, flea being a personal favourite. However, there are many who are not! Adam Clayton being well known for not having any knowledge of improvising around chords and the edge having to show him what to play.

Whereas, in gospel, jazz or latin jazz if your no good it really shows.



I'm at a music school, have been for 3 years.


I said you naturally want to play them, the best musicians are those that wait until the time is right. All self control innit
[/quote]

First point; none of those issues are anywhere near as important as being able to play the right thing for the song. Someone who know his theory back to front and can play at the speed of light in perfect time is still incompetent if they can't play what the song requires, or something that takes the song to the next level. You don't need any real theory at all to be an excellent bass player in most genres, although it certainly isn't necessarily a hindrance and can help a great deal. If you think you do need all that then your emphasis is in the wrong area. It's quite possible to come up with a glorious line without really knowing how you did it or what the theory behind it is. Of course some people need the theory before they can do that, but others don't. By your argument Jeff Berlin (for example) would be one of the best bassists ever in any band situation, in any situation, when quite plainly he wouldn't be (despite what he may think!).

Also FWIW, in a lot of bands the band leader / songwriter etc shows the bassist what to play, although the bassist may then get chance to expand on it. I think that's something you'll maybe need to get used to.

In a music school it's likely that many of the other bassists you meet will want to be the next Jaco, but in the real world that's not necessarily the case. Two very different environments.

Sometimes the time is never right. Learning that can be very difficult; I'm still trying.

[4000]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1329996254' post='1550941']


That definition means that 99% of bass players, including all the ones regarded as "The Greats" are incompetent.
Chris Squire would be f***ing useless playing jazz or latin music, just as the vast majority of gospel players wouldn't have the first idea what to do in an industrial metal band.

Why do some people think bass players have to be masters of every genre or else they're rubbish?

I never hear guitarists slagging off BB King because his two handed tapping is sh*t, or saying that Martin Taylor or John Etheridge are crap because they can't play a convincing Country solo.
[/quote]

And a big +1 to that.

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1329996254' post='1550941']
That definition means that 99% of bass players, including all the ones regarded as "The Greats" are incompetent.
Chris Squire would be f***ing useless playing jazz or latin music, just as the vast majority of gospel players wouldn't have the first idea what to do in an industrial metal band.

Why do some people think bass players have to be masters of every genre or else they're rubbish?

I never hear guitarists slagging off BB King because his two handed tapping is sh*t, or saying that Martin Taylor or John Etheridge are crap because they can't play a convincing Country solo.
[/quote]

This is the problem. I said wide array, not every genre! Chris squire also in my opinion is not anywhere near up there with the likes of Janek Gwizdala or Richard Bona! Not even close.

But BB king isn't modern. I don't know who martin taylor or john etheridge are

Imagine your a session player. Compared to the amount of sessions done in a studio when marcus miller was just starting out there are very few now (ask any top session player). Because of this if you want to make a living you have to be able to play at the very least; pop, latin, rock, jazz and funk/soul/R&B.