xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330017447' post='1551542'] [b]21 so not really what i would call young[/b] The trouble is Doddy is a lot of the music i get in a studio environment is very undeveloped. But in the jam situation a lot of what i play is what i have been practising in a similar unconscious method to what you describe. Which is why i practise a lot so that i have many choices wherever i am on the bass [/quote] It's what I call very young I don't want to undermine your approach, but meaningful art comes from the emotions, experiences, philosophy, and articulated with the approriate techniques that the artist chooses. Great art can not come from technical analysis and execution alone, you just end up with an Athena poster of a sea, and a chess board, and a semi naked lady riding a swan into the vivid sunset beyond the chess board sea. It's meaningless rubbish, but lots of people like it because they see it as representing a set of common fantasy objects, same with a lot of music, it can be popular but not great in terms of quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer.b Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330016791' post='1551530'] This is what I'm talking about. Every note is important, every note should have a reason and contribute to the whole. Every note or phrase you play should be felt and articulated. Good technique and confidence is what really helps here, along with knowing WHY you are playing that note or phrase. Can you sit and play one note repeating at one tempo and get deep inside them? If you do that for a while, you'll notice that same note is different every time, you can control those differences, and if you know why you are playing a note and what you want it to do, you can express something much more fluid and communicative. [/quote] I couldn't agree more Alex James could learn a lot from this cos his time feel is awful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1330016345' post='1551514'] This willl probably get lost in the "Silddx Onslaught" but it is an interesting point which has caused me much frustration - what is it a really good player can play something stupidly simple like 8th notes on the 5th fret but it sounds so much better than me playing exactly the same thing. I looked at technique ( which contributes t it ) but TBH my technique is quite othodox. Then it hit me someone like Steve ( who I've also had lessons with ) is playing from inside him , not in some mystical sense but its just more confident and self assured than someone like me. Just as in the same way as me speaking in front of a crowd is going to sound better if I sound conficent rather than speak in a thin wobbly voice [/quote] Those are exactly the attributes I was talking about in the other thread. Theres SO much you can do with a simple line to make it interesting and captivating. Even something as basic as playing behind the beat can dramatically improve simple lines. [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330016999' post='1551535'] The whole reason for having a solid theoretical knowledge is that it should be internalised so that you can just play without thinking about it,yet it is always there in your subconcious and helping to make life easier for you. [/quote] This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seashell Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I am so ancient that I have barely even [b]heard[/b] of anyone more modern than Krist Novoselic! I do keep meaning to try to re-educate myself though. Basschat would be a great place to start... look up some of the names mentioned in this thread for instance and try and have a listen. In between practising myself and listening again to my entire record collection to concentrate on the bass lines. So much good music, so little time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330017997' post='1551556'] It's what I call very young I don't want to undermine your approach, but meaningful art comes from the emotions, experiences, philosophy, and articulated with the approriate techniques that the artist chooses. [u]Great art can not come from technical analysis and execution alone[/u], you just end up with an Athena poster of a sea, and a chess board, and a semi naked lady riding a swan into the vivid sunset beyond the chess board sea. It's meaningless rubbish, but lots of people like it because they see it as representing a set of common fantasy objects, same with a lot of music, it can be popular but not great in terms of quality. [/quote] Come on Nige, thats comes across a bit condescending. Art in any form is entirely subjective. Theres plenty of 'great art' which was produced by talentless graduates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Mog' timestamp='1330018487' post='1551571'] Come on Nige, thats comes across a bit condescending. [/quote] Only a bit? Must be one of his good days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330015343' post='1551498'] In answer to both. When i watch a performance i am watching the body language and listening for articulation and dynamics. The combination of these 3 things is what i think expresses musicality and what i see as the difference between a good performer and someone who's not quite there yet. I work on all 3 of these so i can put across what i guess can be described as a simulation of emotion. Say i'm playing a song that was written about pain; despite the fact i am loving the performance i can still get the idea of pain across using the combination of the 3 things suggested before. Same if i'm really not enjoying the gig i will play and have the body language to suggest i am. It's all fake but importantly its consistent. [/quote] I'm sorry, but this is possibly the most horrible thing I've ever read about someone's approach to music. You're approaching it like a bricklayer instead of an architect. Do you write music? More importantly, do you enjoy writing music? So far I agree with Nige 110% on this. Or is 110% hippy bollocks? I do however feel that there are musicians and musicians, IMO. There are those who live to play, and those who live to create. Of course sometimes they do both. There are those who look at music as some sort of mathematical exercise, and those who look at it as the fulfillment of some sort of magical creative urge. Of course some do both. I tend to fall into the latter category in both cases, as I suspect does Silddx. I've sometimes (often) found that the two struggle to understand each other. Another thing is that I've often seen that there are two distinct types of players that some aspire to be. One is to be an original, someone with a unique voice, even where that may limit your versatility. A Peter Hook, a Lemmy, a Jaco, a Stanley. The other is to be a musical chameleon who can play anything and blends in perfectly, becoming almost unrecognisable. A session player, in essence. Of course many, like me, want to be a bit of both. However the bassists I truly admire all tend to be original, unique voices; that's what draws me to a musician. Your example of Janek, Richard and Chris is an interesting one; two of those are two of my favourite players. I have them in a different order than you though (although FWIW no player is "better" than another as ultimately it's all a matter of context and personal taste); Chris is, in the context of Yes, arguably my favourite player. Janek would be the last of the 3 by some margin, although I very much enjoy his playing (and yes I've seen him too). Richard is wonderful (have seen him twice and he's truly inspirational), but I still prefer Chris. For me, Chris Squire is more of an original voice, more unique in terms of note choice and tone, more integral to the music that he plays. IMO. And of course as Nigel says, Chris wrote his lines (which in the context of his music are IMO more perfect than anything the other two have so far come up with). Interesting that you should throw Laurence Cottle into the mix. I've seen Laurence live, have even spoken to him. Seems like a nice guy, has excellent skills and a vast amount of knowledge. But you know what? His playing leaves me cold. I don't really feel like he has that much original to say. I can understand that he might be what you aspire to, but some of us aspire to other things. I have absolutely no interest in being a Laurence Cottle, good as he might be. Edited February 23, 2012 by 4000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Crikey, how many posts while I was writing the above? Note to self, must save typing til hand is healed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seashell Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1330018669' post='1551577'] Only a bit? Must be one of his good days. [/quote] He looks very cheerful these days though, doesn't he? Lovin the new avatar.. who [b]is [/b]that genial young chap! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1329999393' post='1551032'] Theres a lot of presumptions your making by my posts. To address your point of playing whats right for the song. I am 100% behind that point. However, there are many many many songs out there. Each song requires something different, and a good player will have the skills to play whats necessary for the part. In some band situation for example, Jeff Berlin's playing might be a perfect. Also the guys you play who you think are keeping it simple, doing big arena tours and stuff can play some incredible stuff that requires huge knowledge of theory. I know this because i know and have seen the young guys in london play when they're not supporting and artist and are just jamming. You presume i'm not used to being told what to play...... If anything that is pretty much what i do all the time, i am very used to it and i am very comfortable with not changing it at all or changing it if it is agreed t can be expanded. In a music school everyone wants to reach their potential. You pay ridiculous amounts of money to learn what i takes to be a successful pro with a long career. I'm told that these are the things to learn so i learn them. [/quote] I addition to the above, I do feel I have to answer a couple of your responses directly. Firstly, my point was that Jeff might be great in some situations but not in others, which you seem to have missed. Playing goes beyond knowing what notes to play or what feel to use; there are such things as tone and touch. Re you post about being able to play more than you show, did you see my post mentioning Matt Garrison playing with Whitney? FWIW if you'd seen me playing in my last band, you'd have assumed I was a bit Foxton / Entwistle-esque. Sometimes I am. Sometimes I'm not. Depends entirely on the music. My statement about being told what to play was in response to your earlier post. I'd re-read what you said if I were you. As to the last point, Adrian Legg (look him up) once said something to the effect of "it's a rare individual that can survive the academic". I can't remember the exact quote, but that was the gist of it IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Generalisation warning. One of the ironies is that when you start out playing you are eager to learn loads of cool chops that sound impressive. Then you stick em in the most innapropriate places. As you develop you become more turned on by the collectiveness and collaboration in music realising that sometimes it don't matter how great your chops/theory is none of it matters if you cannot do it with feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Mog' timestamp='1330018487' post='1551571'] Come on Nige, thats comes across a bit condescending. Art in any form is entirely subjective. Theres plenty of 'great art' which was produced by talentless graduates. [/quote] It wasn't meant to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1330018669' post='1551577'] Only a bit? Must be one of his good days. [/quote] Cheers. Chin chin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 One other thing: some people have natural talent for things. Whether it's nature or nurture or a little of both can obviously be argued, but some people inherently understand things that other people have to study. For some, the study is essential. For others, the study simply isn't necessary. It's quite possible to be a brilliant creative artist without knowing the theory behind something, although obviously theory can help. I can't remember whether it was Richard Bona or Armand Sabal-Lecco (I think it was Armand) who said something to the effect of "the music comes first. The study comes afterwards". When I was at school I could always draw far better than anyone else. Why? Because I drew a lot. I never studied it. I just somehow understood how it worked. I understood how to look at things, but I couldn't have told you what I was doing. I just did it. When I went to college I learnt some of he technical stuff behind it and got a bit better, but not a lot better. Others gained hugely from the academic side, but often because they hadn't had the natural understanding in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330017997' post='1551556'] It's what I call very young [/quote] I'm 22 and I get the importance of this type of stuff. What I've increasingly noticed in younger and more 'talented' musicians are attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread, i.e. the idea that music is somehow this quantifiable thing that is to be learnt like you would maths for example. It's probably one of the downside of attending music schools (not intentionally slamming you blackmn90, just an observation), and one of the reasons I left my Uni course. There are too many people who will take the books they read and the lecturer's word as gospel. The result of this is a fairly contrived idea of what music is all about and this mad idea that music can be rubbished purely because of a perceived lack of technical or theoretical prowess. The best plan of action is to trust your own judgement on what sounds good and what doesn't, as opposed to what you think people will judge you on listening to. Unfortunately, a kind of institutionalised musical 'snobbery' prohibits this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330016999' post='1551535'] Interesting approach. I'd rather listen to the music and feel it. The whole reason for having a solid theoretical knowledge is that it should be internalised so that you can just play without thinking about it,yet it is always there in your subconcious and helping to make life easier for you. [/quote] Welcome home Paul This is exactly what theory and technique are for. To facilitate the expression of the players feelings, to be able to play what you hear in your head (the result of your life and experiences) with minimum mental and physical effort and therefore move toward a true representation of yourself and how you interpret musical information and situations. I have some technique and 30 years of experience, but very little academic knowledge. However, I am told my composition and playing is expressive, even sometimes quite wickid, and fit very well with the songs I'm given. I simply can't play what I think is wrong or unsuitable, I can't actually play it, my body and mind won't allow me to. A good note will thrill me and a bad note will kill me - but I don't really know WHY they are right or wrong, I just FEEL that way, I often see them as colours or temperatures, sort of. I get far too emotional about very small nuances. I'm talking too much hippy bollocks now aren't I Edited February 23, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Damn hippies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330023207' post='1551675'] Damn hippies [/quote] What do you say when someone says to you "Say something!" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftyhook Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Dear me. I think we all need to lighten up. for me, this is a brilliant performance. Wilco Johnson on guitar. Perfect guitar playing? No. Or is it? In the context of the song and visuals of the band, YES! Raw, but anyone who saw him live around this era can't not have been caught in the buzz of it all. And that's what playing live is all about. capturing the audience. http://youtu.be/6nyeSGaBcrA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='leftyhook' timestamp='1330024019' post='1551693'] Dear me. I think we all need to lighten up. [/quote] Thanks doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldslapper Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually wanted to say....well done to blackmn90 for standing your ground and handling the Nige onslaught well. He's a formidable old (but incredibly young looking...obvious now) sod and is passionate about his passion for passionate passionnn...nnnn.. Anyway, thought that was a good old debate that ended well....until I posted this crap of course. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330023358' post='1551679'] What do you say when someone says to you "Say something!" ? [/quote] i would say "why?" And thanks old slapper. Unfortunately I'm just stubborn and far too opinionated for my own good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330024923' post='1551715'] i would say "why?" [/quote] But what would you play if someone said "play something"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330027224' post='1551765'] But what would you play if someone said "play something"? [/quote] just tested this. Started with a chord progression and moved into creating a melody around it. After that i would usually look for strong rhythm and expand from there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judo Chop Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 All the theory knowledge in the world won't help you when the Chinese take over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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