BigRedX Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330008846' post='1551338'] The best pub gigs round here have a very good selection policy..in that they police their line-up carefully. That way, you find many turn up every week and they know the criteria and standard is good enough. In that sense, the venue has the audience already..the bands bring along theirs..and you get a rammed pub. It works. [/quote] I don't know. Maybe the musical circles that I move in are different to yours. I don't know anyone that would go out to a music venue without at least a passing interest in one of the bands that was going to playing that night. There are venues that we'd rather go to to see bands given the choice, but for me and all the people I know, it's the band(s) that get us in rather than the venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Ugh! This is where business and pleasure collides for the independent musician. I agree and disagree to that letter because I have worked on both sides of the fence, so I will try to balance things. A gig booking is another word for ‘invitation’…that is a very powerful word in legal terms and always in favour of the venue. You are seen as guest along with your audience. Believe it or not, the venue does [u]not[/u] have a legal obligation to promote an act. If there isn’t a written agreement between both parties about who is responsible for the PR and how the funds for the band will be generated you haven’t got a leg to stand on. In effect, you are the promoter in that instance and it is your responsibility to meet the venues minimum requirement. It is therefore their discretion to pay you regardless how much money they have taken that night because you are a ‘guest’. If money is exchanged on the door the proceeds will go to the venue and it is totally down to them how that money is used. Bands would usually have a fall back by selling their own merch on the premises, but that also needs to be agreed by the venue. You are very much in a position whereby you are setting your own targets to generate your own revenue and the law does not protect musicians very well in this situation. If the venue promotes the gig or uses their own promotion agency then the profit & losses are their responsibility…not yours. If you have agreed on a fee (in writing) then it is down to the venue to ensure that you will get paid. In this instance, the tables are turned. If you get short changed because takings were low then tough on them, not you. They are now in debt to you. Under trading laws they are paying for an entertainment service. As long as you have remained professional (showed up to the venue on time, played your allotted time, conducted yourself in a professional manner with venue staff, not damaged anything in the premises etc etc…) then they are obligated to pay your fee that has been agreed. There are still issues to overcome, but I will get onto that in a moment. In any instance terms can be negotiated between both parties and agreed before the performance and you can creatively work together to promote the gig and come to a financial arrangement. You need to be quite savvy and keep your business head on in this respect to minimise any potential problems with payment. Above all, get everything in writing! Informal gentlemen’s agreements don’t hold any water. The venue will have a list of requirements that need to be followed by the act. Ask for this in writing. If they don’t have such a thing, still ask for it! The same goes for you too. Make sure that the venue understands your requirements (technical, riders, guest lists etc..). Upon that you can then negotiate a fee for your performance. Do not leave it until you get to the venue! The more professional you are with your approach to bookings the less grief you will get on the night. Some of it might be overkill depending on the venue (i.e. The Red Lion on the outskirts of town that does a cracking Sunday lunch for £6.99!), but at least you will ensure you have turned over every stone. If you think that you are going to take a personal financial hit find out if your costs can be covered at least before agreeing to perform at the venue. That is essential preparation for the traveling musician. All of this can be taken with a pinch of salt depending if you plan to make a career out of music or if you are a hobbyist that is in it just for the pleasure of performing. Playing live is a lot of fun when trying to cut your teeth in this industry, but musicians are poorly protected in the eyes of the law and have been for decades. The Musicians Union can offer advice, but you will find that there is not much they can do either. Nothing will about that change anytime soon, but you can take steps to protect your interests when you have grievances. Register your band as a business. I made this step a few years back and it has been a good experience. Okay, it does take the edge off the fun side of things, but you will be protected by the law as a business a heck of a lot better. It’s quick, easy and cheap to set up. Avoid cash payments as much as possible. All registered businesses are able to pay by cheque or electronic transfer by form of an invoice. The downside is that you will have to declare your earnings to the tax man, but if you don’t get paid what you are owed you have a lot more legal clout behind you. Fact is that live music venues are suffering along with the rest of the drinks and hospitality industry, hence why I don’t work in that trade anymore. The price on booze has rocketed in recent years. During a recession the money is not there for folks to go out and spend. Venues are offering lower fees or none at all which is turning off bands. It’s a crappy state of affairs for the performing musician trying to earn a few quid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 TBH, I find many people very amateurish with organisation, comms, letting people know what is going on and what requirements there are, punctuality, etc. You could not operate a business in this way. So many people have so few skills, they just seem to expect it all to go right on the night. This is everyone, musicians, promoters, venues sound engineers .. I usually find the promoters are the most organised, they have the most to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330012330' post='1551411'] TBH, I find many people very amateurish with organisation, comms, letting people know what is going on and what requirements there are, punctuality, etc. You could not operate a business in this way. So many people have so few skills, they just seem to expect it all to go right on the night. This is everyone, musicians, promoters, venues sound engineers .. I usually find the promoters are the most organised, they have the most to lose. [/quote] That's business mate. Some folks are ethical and efficient and others are disrespectful and incompetent. My day job is no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330011308' post='1551389'] I don't know. Maybe the musical circles that I move in are different to yours. I don't know anyone that would go out to a music venue without at least a passing interest in one of the bands that was going to playing that night. There are venues that we'd rather go to to see bands given the choice, but for me and all the people I know, it's the band(s) that get us in rather than the venue. [/quote] Really? How do you find new bands to listen to? I went to, an albeit small, venue just before New Year without ever hearing of the band that was playing. Last week I bought their CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1330011618' post='1551395'] A gig booking is another word for ‘invitation’…that is a very powerful word in legal terms and always in favour of the venue. You are seen as guest along with your audience. Believe it or not, the venue does [u]not[/u] have a legal obligation to promote an act. Fact is that live music venues are suffering along with the rest of the drinks and hospitality industry, hence why I don’t work in that trade anymore. The price on booze has rocketed in recent years. During a recession the money is not there for folks to go out and spend. Venues are offering lower fees or none at all which is turning off bands. It’s a crappy state of affairs for the performing musician trying to earn a few quid. [/quote] Great article. I am a bit uncomfortable with the "invitation" term. I see the band as different to the audience in so much as they have agreed a fee to be at a venue and to provide a service. The audience do not do this. There are still quality venues booking quality bands. The venues that do well that we play at are normally those that have fostered a reputation for quality and pay over the going rate! They know which bands are popular and are happy to pay them because they know that the place will be full. Lots of bands are trying to play at these venues but the owners are much more discerning than the club owner who will book anyone on a pay to play. The pay to play venues get everything they deserve. If i have a business i am responsible for it as i make the decisions. I certainly wouldn't leave it to a bunch of musos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1330012777' post='1551425'] Really? How do you find new bands to listen to? [/quote] Loads of ways. Bands that are on the same bill as ones that I've been to see, recommendations from friends etc. that I'll check out on the internet. As you might have gathered I'm fairly choosy about the music I like. The idea of going to a gig where there is a good chance of being subjected to music I have no interest in all night is my idea of hell. However that doesn't mean that I only go and see bands who's output I'm very familiar with. Last time I had to stay overnight in London, I spent an afternoon going through gig listings for the evening I would be there and checking out the bands on MySpace etc. in order to find a gig who's music would be to my taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 LOL I've literally been commenting on an almost identical situation on a local music forum. A band played at a local pub venue recently and at the end of the evening the bar manager approached the band and renegotiated their fee down... because THEY hadn't brought any extra punters with them! Now this was never prior agreed nor was it implied and we are talking about knocking down the fee at the 'end' of the night when the band have played two full sets inc' 3 encores. Needless to say the band are aggrieved but didn't make an issue of it on the night (more fool them, some might say). The manager's defence was that the crowd that were in were locals and also members of the local darts team who were at the venue regardless and no extra punters were brought in by the band. My argument would be that the manager hired the band for their services to entertain the crowd NOT to bring 10 - 20+ people along with them. There has been debate on the matter with other bar managers saying 'fair does' and bands saying 'get stuffed'; now bands need venues and music venues need bands so it should be symbiotic BUT to think that it is acceptable to dock monies at the end of the evening is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1330019070' post='1551596'] LOL I've literally been commenting on an almost identical situation on a local music forum. A band played at a local pub venue recently and at the end of the evening the bar manager approached the band and renegotiated their fee down... because THEY hadn't brought any extra punters with them! Now this was never prior agreed nor was it implied and we are talking about knocking down the fee at the 'end' of the night when the band have played two full sets inc' 3 encores. Needless to say the band are aggrieved but didn't make an issue of it on the night (more fool them, some might say). The manager's defence was that the crowd that were in were locals and also members of the local darts team who were at the venue regardless and no extra punters were brought in by the band. My argument would be that the manager hired the band for their services to entertain the crowd NOT to bring 10 - 20+ people along with them. There has been debate on the matter with other bar managers saying 'fair does' and bands saying 'get stuffed'; now bands need venues and music venues need bands so it should be symbiotic BUT to think that it is acceptable to dock monies at the end of the evening is a joke. [/quote] That is shocking.... not sure how the pub got away with that... The way it works with us is that we review every date and decide whether we want to go back. If the crowd is low then your hand is weakened anway, so it is always a good thing to work at getting people along. We are crap at it though or nobby no-mates. For this reason we are a slow-burn and many a newer band will pull more as they get their mates to turn out at every gig.. maybe we are just old farts. Just put the rates up as well.. ha ha !! I think we have got this all wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We are the lowest of the low, last on the list. Venue owners don't care about us and don't give a second's thought to all the effort we put in. Punters are the same, they just think we do it for a laugh and go to rock 'n' roll parties after every gig. We're also our own worst enemy because such is our desire to play, we'll put up with anything. I work hard at my playing all week and have always done at least an hour of pre gig practice on the day and all to play to people who don't care, for a pittance. Why? Self esteem, pride, love of music. Bring it on, I love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is an interesting read http://songbytoad.com/2011/07/a-few-reasons-promoters-and-bands-dont-get-along/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 One analogy that does work is the Sky one. Pubs seem to be happy to pay up to £13k a year for footie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1330030927' post='1551867'] One analogy that does work is the Sky one. Pubs seem to be happy to pay up to £13k a year for footie! [/quote] Not any more they don't! At one time every pub had the footy on with a full pub watching but a mixture of the recession meaning that people don't go out as much and Sky pricing pubs out of the market means that you are struggling to find a pub witht he game on around here........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1329991401' post='1550809'] I wish Old Git was here to comment on this [/quote] I was just thinking the same thing. Even though I know we'd disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 There was a court case last year where a pub won the right to use a Greek decoder card to receive sky footy in the UK. As usual in rip-off Britain, the sky pricing was over 3x the price in the UK and they took legal action to prevent the cheaper Greek decoder cards being imported and used, but the European Courts decided this would be against the 'common market'. Good old EU eh? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15162241 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/8807377/What-you-need-to-know-about-the-Premier-League-TV-ruling.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1330005913' post='1551266'] The taxman allows 45p/mile to run a car, so a 228x2 miles round trip will cost £205.20. Factor in the cost of equipment and I can't see how any but a tiny minority of people can ever make a living as a musician. Basically, they need a 'proper paying' job in order to subsidise their hobby. [/quote] And my "proper paying job" won't stretch far enough... [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330012330' post='1551411'] TBH, I find many people very amateurish with organisation, comms, letting people know what is going on and what requirements there are, punctuality, etc. You could not operate a business in this way. So many people have so few skills, they just seem to expect it all to go right on the night. This is everyone, musicians, promoters, venues sound engineers .. I usually find the promoters are the most organised, they have the most to lose. [/quote] Your use of the term "Amateurish" is entirely appropriate. Many players are amateurs. Why expect professional standards from them? All the amateurs have been being professional all day at their "proper paying jobs" (to subsidise their amateur hobby). I'm guessing that they've had enough of professionalism by the time it gets to gigging time... [quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1330012658' post='1551419'] That's business mate. Some folks are ethical and efficient and others are disrespectful and incompetent. My day job is no different. [/quote] Please note that the above terms are not necessarily mutually exclusive or inclusive! But when it comes to playing music, I just can't be bothered with having to sort my way through the human minefield anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 [quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1330035096' post='1551948'] Your use of the term "Amateurish" is entirely appropriate. Many players are amateurs. Why expect professional standards from them? [/quote] And if you do expect professional standards from them - start paying them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 [quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1330035096' post='1551948'] But when it comes to playing music, I just can't be bothered with having to sort my way through the human minefield anymore. [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyJay Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 [quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1329991401' post='1550809'] I wish Old Git was here to comment on this [/quote] I thought that as soon as I saw the thread title! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I find it all so depressing, especially observing how the whole "scene" has changed over the last 27 years that I have been gigging. Ultimately though, so many people still want to play more for the love of it than for money (although the dosh is a nice bonus). However, venue owners/promoters/whatever are [u]never[/u] doing it for the love of it. Making money is always the prime influence. Making music is, and always will be, a creative love and expression for most people doing it. This isn't going to change so, as a group. musicians will always tend to get done over by the money-makers. The drop in numbers of folk who are actually interested in seeing a live band is also shocking. Of those who do come along, half of them seem to turn their backs on the band and dance, as if the band were simply like a DJ. I'd never, ever do this if I didn't love simply making live music with bandmates so much. It's like torture sometimes Might just go and top myself now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwoff Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I had a conversation recently regarding playing for free and how I am totally against it under any circumstance only to find myself shot down by my band who think 'its what you need to do to get into venues' I still wont do it. No way no how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1330032469' post='1551892'] There was a court case last year where a pub won the right to use a Greek decoder card to receive sky footy in the UK. As usual in rip-off Britain, the sky pricing was over 3x the price in the UK and they took legal action to prevent the cheaper Greek decoder cards being imported and used, but the European Courts decided this would be against the 'common market'. Good old EU eh? [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15162241"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-15162241[/url] [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/8807377/What-you-need-to-know-about-the-Premier-League-TV-ruling.html"]http://www.telegraph...-TV-ruling.html[/url] [/quote] Now there's a coincidence: The London High Court has also just upheld the ECJ decision. Cheaper footy on the way? I somehow doubt it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17150054 [i]"Instead of using Sky, on which it costs £700 a month to see Premier League matches, she used the Greek TV station Nova, which has the rights to screen the games in Greece, and which cost her £800 a year.[/i]" So, 10x the price to watch the same matches in the UK compared to Greece! What mugs we are in the UK (well, not me, I don't watch any footy, but I'm sure the rip-off principle applies elsewhere ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1330074848' post='1552199'] Of those who do come along, half of them seem to turn their backs on the band and dance, as if the band were simply like a DJ. [/quote] The Bastards. It's awful that people actually dance to the band rather than just sitting there and 'appreciating' the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) For once I'm in agreement with Doddy. If you want people to look at your band you've got to give them something worth watching. Simply being on stage playing and jiggling around a bit is rarely sufficient. Edited February 24, 2012 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330008846' post='1551338'] The best pub gigs round here have a very good selection policy..in that they police their line-up carefully. That way, you find many turn up every week and they know the criteria and standard is good enough. In that sense, the venue has the audience already..the bands bring along theirs..and you get a rammed pub. It works. [/quote] I totally agree that a venue ought to have a reputation for putting on acts of a known quality, therefore punters could turn up whenever a gig is onb and be guaranteed a good night. However this is almost impossible to achieve in practice. I used to do the Saturday night jazz/blues gigs for the local arts centre, helping the bands set up on the stage, putting the chairs & tables out, running the sound system, clearing up afterwards etc. The number of people who would turn up for a band they knew. saying things like "I love blues" but you wouldn't see them for any other equally good blues band ... same with jazz acts. I did those shows for nearly 10 years, during which time the incidence of duff acts dropped from an initial few-in-a-season to negligible-in-a-year after 4 years so that quality was consistently good during the latter half of my time doing those gigs. Yet the common perception in the town was that the arts centre only put on arty-farty stuff of no relevance to ordinary punters (this was probably not helped by the consistently anti- stance of the local press, even though most of the people I knew in the town reckoned the local press "had no idea" and rarely printed a sane or balanced viewpoint on anything). Most of the ticket sales were to well-heeled addresses outside of the town, even though to this day I believe that the acts we put on would have been enjoyed by people in the town had they been bothered to try them. Where I live now, most of the pubs with live music can be guaranteed to put on acts of acceptable quality and it's up to you whether you like that style of music. Its the distance between where I live and those venues that limits the frequency at which I would visit such places. If I lived within walking distance I would probably be there more often. Limitations like that often don;t apply in towns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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