Is it the Venues fault or yours?

[JTUK]

My example applies to two pubs.. They are most sort after gigs and can even pay below standard rates as they are over-subsribed with bands trying to get in.
We are going to have to pull out from one of these gigs though as it clashes with a Brewery sponsored show we would rather do.
We would have done both but the pub complained to their brewery/masters than we were taking trade away from them... even though
the gigs can't clash as they aren't even on the same nights of the week... Not sure why we seem to be the only ones affected either, but there you go.

I think there are way too many bands per venue so a decent selection policy can work, but it needs to be upheld and it needs to
keep the upper hand in doing so. People do turn out on their band night because they know any band that gigs there are going to be decent.

This is opposed to many a venue who must chase the best drawing acts even though some aren't very good. I don't mind those pubs who need to fill their bar
and a lot of it is shamless self promotion..which we can all be guilty of... but how some bands get gigs I do not know, on the basis that they aren't very good at all.

Edited February 24, 2012 by JTUK

[Rich]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1329991401' post='1550809']
I wish Old Git was here to comment on this
[/quote]
You and me both mate.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330103415' post='1552882']
This is opposed to many a venue who must chase the best drawing acts even though some aren't very good. I don't mind those pubs who need to fill their bar
and a lot of it is shamless self promotion..which we can all be guilty of... but how some bands get gigs I do not know, on the basis that they aren't very good at all.
[/quote]

When you say "not very good" in what sense do you mean?

[peteb]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330106262' post='1552940']
When you say "not very good" in what sense do you mean?
[/quote]
I know he's beating around the bush a bit but I think what he means is that the bands in question are actually 'not very good', i.e. rubbish as opposed to being 'good'.......

[xilddx]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1330074848' post='1552199']
I find it all so depressing, especially observing how the whole "scene" has changed over the last 27 years that I have been gigging.

Ultimately though, so many people still want to play more for the love of it than for money (although the dosh is a nice bonus). However, venue owners/promoters/whatever are [u]never[/u] doing it for the love of it. Making money is always the prime influence.
Making music is, and always will be, a creative love and expression for most people doing it. This isn't going to change so, as a group. musicians will always tend to get done over by the money-makers.

The drop in numbers of folk who are actually interested in seeing a live band is also shocking. Of those who do come along, half of them seem to turn their backs on the band and dance, as if the band were simply like a DJ.
I'd never, ever do this if I didn't love simply making live music with bandmates so much. It's like torture sometimes

Might just go and top myself now.
[/quote]
You depressing bastard.

Most small venues and promoters I know do it because they love good live music and wish to please their clientelle. You can't do something like that just for the money, have you any idea what a small venue owner, or a private promoter, have to do and deal with, and still make little or no profit? Your surmise is pure conjecture and based on a depressing and cynical world view.

[JTUK]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330106262' post='1552940']
When you say "not very good" in what sense do you mean?
[/quote]

Can't play well

[BigRedX]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1330109654' post='1552997']
I know he's beating around the bush a bit but I think what he means is that the bands in question are actually 'not very good', i.e. rubbish as opposed to being 'good'.......
[/quote]

No meant are they "not good" in just a musical sense, or "not good" at entertaining the audience.

[hamfist]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330111240' post='1553020']
You depressing bastard.
[/quote]

It's true

[xilddx]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1330119698' post='1553174']
It's true
[/quote]

Welcome to my world

[hamfist]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330086966' post='1552453']
The Bastards.

It's awful that people actually dance to the band rather than just sitting there and 'appreciating' the music.
[/quote]

My point exactly. Outragious !

[spinynorman]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1329991457' post='1550811']
I agree 100%.

I had a very similay argument with the new owner of a pub that my band played regularly. He didn't want to pay us any more than £100, even though we were popular and the regulars were asking him when my band was going to play again.

I was about to accept his £100 when he said 'how many people can you bring?'
I replied that the venue has customers and it was my job to entertain them.
'you got to bring at leat ten people, or it's worth me paying you £100'

I said that if we were the sort of band that carried their fans around wherever we played, we'd put our own nights on at a better venue, charge on the door and pay ourselves a lot more than £100.
As he was clearly more interested in having ten people in his pub than having entertainment, I then offered to take his £100 and bring ten mates to his pub on Friday night. I woud then give each of my mates £10 of his money to spend over the bar. At very least he would get his £100 back and probably more as my mates are very thirsty people.

He said this was a ridiculous idea - why would he give me £100 to bring my mates to his pub? I pointed out that paying my band £100 to play on the condition we brought in 10 people was exactly the same thing except I'd be drinking instead of playing.
[/quote]

I think this is a much better argument than the chef analogy in the original article.

There's a lot of confusion in the discussion about this between pubs or bars, which are mostly frequented by people who want to drink, and music venues, where the band and the music is what people go for. In a venue, the problem is getting people to turn up and buy a ticket, so of course you need acts with a name and a following. In a pub, especially in a town centre, the main problem is stopping the punters who come in from going on somewhere else. There's two ways of doing that: book good, entertaining bands and build your clientele around a reputation for good music; or rely on the bands to bring an audience, in which case it's a bit like eating a whole packet of hobnobs - huge sugar rush, big high and an empty sick feeling soon after.

I do have some sympathy with the landlords - most are being squeezed so hard by the breweries there's no money to invest in the business. But, it's very hard to persuade a following to turn up to a pub that smells like the stairwell of a multi-storey carpark.

[chris_b]

So, you bring all your mates to a gig, will they come to the next gig 30 miles away on the following night? And what will you do to get your audience/mates to the 2 gigs the next week and the three gigs the week after?

Any promoter expecting bands to provide him with an audience and an income day in day out is lazy, incompetent and a leech on musicians.
[font=Arial][size=2] [/size][/font]

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330112308' post='1553040']
Can't play well
[/quote]

Unfortunately for you unless the band's playing ability is so poor that it affects their performance to the point where even non-musician members of the audience notice, the fact that a band "can't play well" is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to getting gigs.

Venues want bands that will stop their existing audience from leaving and bring in some new people through the door. Bands tend to do this by either having lots of friends who can be persuaded to turn up or by being entertaining to watch and listen to, which lets them build up a reputation for being worth going to see.

The audience wants to be entertained. They want something interesting to look at and some catchy songs songs to sing along to and maybe even get up and dance to. If you haven't got those then it doesn't matter how well you play as a band or individual musicians - you are unlikely to be attractive to the audience.

[JTUK]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330177747' post='1553748']
Unfortunately for you unless the band's playing ability is so poor that it affects their performance to the point where even non-musician members of the audience notice, the fact that a band "can't play well" is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to getting gigs.

Venues want bands that will stop their existing audience from leaving and bring in some new people through the door. Bands tend to do this by either having lots of friends who can be persuaded to turn up or by being entertaining to watch and listen to, which lets them build up a reputation for being worth going to see.

The audience wants to be entertained. They want something interesting to look at and some catchy songs songs to sing along to and maybe even get up and dance to. If you haven't got those then it doesn't matter how well you play as a band or individual musicians - you are unlikely to be attractive to the audience.
[/quote]

Don't disagree, altho I find it amusing, or rather, I just don't get it..but sure, if you don't pull people in, you aren't much use to a venue round here.
Most, it not nearly all, expect the band to do their bit.

Bands can, of course, talk up their game, no end, but it doesn't matter a hill of beans if you play to empty.

[JTUK]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330177747' post='1553748']
Unfortunately for you unless the band's playing ability is so poor that it affects their performance to the point where even non-musician members of the audience notice, the fact that a band "can't play well" is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to getting gigs.

Venues want bands that will stop their existing audience from leaving and bring in some new people through the door. Bands tend to do this by either having lots of friends who can be persuaded to turn up or by being entertaining to watch and listen to, which lets them build up a reputation for being worth going to see.

The audience wants to be entertained. They want something interesting to look at and some catchy songs songs to sing along to and maybe even get up and dance to. If you haven't got those then it doesn't matter how well you play as a band or individual musicians - you are unlikely to be attractive to the audience.
[/quote]

and I forgot...one or two of these bands, can't play for toffee, and I mean T.O.F.F.E.E, but one of them broke the attendance record of the year for one local pub.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, but I know their set and performance made my eyes water... ...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330178521' post='1553764']
Most, it not nearly all, expect the band to do their bit.
[/quote]

Which is exactly as it should be. Getting an audience in through the door is the responsibility of both the venue/promotor and the bands playing there.

As a band member I think there is little point in playing almost no-one - especially if you've spent 2+ hours getting there. I don't expect any venue that we go and play to have a ready-made audience, so for a first gig in a new town we will pull out all the stops to make sure that everyone we know who lives in the area, is aware that we will be playing in their locality.

Edited February 25, 2012 by BigRedX

[JTUK]

agree... altho it is funny we struggle more..relatively ..at pubs than ticketed affiars.

[peteb]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330112896' post='1553053']
No meant are they "not good" in just a musical sense, or "not good" at entertaining the audience.
[/quote]
Sorry, couldn't resist an attempt at humour there!

Bands can be good in different ways - if they are good musically or if they are good entertainers then they deserve to get an audience and probably will do so at pub rock level

If they can do both..... then even better - but the worse thing that a band can do is to be boring (doesn't matter how good the playing is if a band is boring)!

Edited February 25, 2012 by peteb

[peteb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330178718' post='1553767']
and I forgot...one or two of these bands, can't play for toffee, and I mean T.O.F.F.E.E, but one of them broke the attendance record of the year for one local pub.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, but I know their set and performance made my eyes water... ...
[/quote]
There is a band round here like that - can't play to save their lives but nice guys who can mobilize lots of friends and family to pack out a couple of biggish local gigs in their part of town

Local landlords love 'em as they will always sell a lot of beer, even if it is generally acknowledged that they aren't any good, but I don't think that they would want too many other bands like that otherwise they would drive a way their regulars who turn out to see better bands

Of curse this band only play regularly at these two venues as if they play out further away or even the other side of town they NEVER get rebooked!

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330179120' post='1553777']


Which is exactly as it should be. Getting an audience in through the door is the responsibility of both the venue/promotor and the bands playing there.

As a band member I think there is little point in playing almost no-one - especially if you've spent 2+ hours getting there. I don't expect any venue that we go and play to have a ready-made audience, so for a first gig in a new town we will pull out all the stops to make sure that everyone we know who lives in the area, is aware that we will be playing in their locality.
[/quote]

I agree, it works both ways. Promoters should do their jobs but bands should also do their bit. Nobody wins if you're playing to an empty room.
The problem is that there are far too many unrealistic expectations on both sides of the fence.

[BottomE]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1330177747' post='1553748']
The audience wants to be entertained. They want something interesting to look at and some catchy songs songs to sing along to and maybe even get up and dance to. If you haven't got those then it doesn't matter how well you play as a band or individual musicians - you are unlikely to be attractive to the audience.
[/quote]

big + 1 to this

So many bands get caught up with the sound, technical ability, gear etc and forget that they are there to provide entertainment. 99% of punters don't care about your amp or strings or if you know every scale or some super duper chops. Its taken me about 20 years to realise this

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1330286445' post='1555286']
99% of punters don't care about your amp or strings or if you know every scale or some super duper chops. Its taken me about 20 years to realise this [/quote]

Indeed. We'd all be better off re-jigging our practice / rehearsal time as follows:

30% - Technique / Gear
30% - Learning how to blag gigs / self-promote etc
40% - Performance / Entertainment skills

[Musky]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1330286445' post='1555286']
big + 1 to this

So many bands get caught up with the sound, technical ability, gear etc and forget that they are there to provide entertainment. 99% of punters don't care about your amp or strings or if you know every scale or some super duper chops. Its taken me about 20 years to realise this
[/quote]
+1

I still remember the guitarist of a band I was driving for snapping a string during a solo - then a second one went. Out of frustration the normally quite subdued guy thrashed the living cr*p out of the remaining strings until there was only one left. The place went absolutely bananas. The band were pretty damn good players but they never had that sort of response on any of their other dates.

Neil Young did the same sort of thing on his last tour (only with the aid of string cutters). That went down pretty well as well.

Sometimes the music can be fairly incidental to what else is going down onstage.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1330287503' post='1555311']
Sometimes the music can be fairly incidental to what else is going down onstage.[/quote]

If - indeed - there [i]is[/i] anything else going down onstage.

God knows, at worst punters are used to things like the telly where the entertainment is - again at worst - professional.

So they walk into a boozer and see a clutch of pudgy middle-aged men, one of whom is wearing an inappropriate hat, while another sports a lurid shirt.

'The Band' kicks off a hideous row and stop 3 minutes later to an embarrassed silence. 'Hello' says the frontman and dabs his forehead nervously.

Songs you've heard a million times stumble around before collapsing into each other in a welter of panicky glances, weak jokes and muffed intros. After half an hour, the noise subsides and someone says "We'll be back in ten minutes".

I mean, is that like - a threat - or what?

'The Band' edges six inches away from the bit of carpet that denotes the performance area and stand around in abashed silence. Someone's brother-in-law laughs. No-one knows why.

The second set is no different from the first except that a number of 'regulars' have sidled quietly into the other bar where they are pulling exaggerated faces and sticking their fingers in their ears.

As the final climactic chord dies away, a cymbal stand falls over. The scowling drummer rushes outside, where he can be heard slagging off the guitarist in a loud voice.

"Dear God, we should be paying the audience" says the bass player. He is right.

Edited February 26, 2012 by skankdelvar

[mrtcat]

I've really enjoyed reading this topic as money is something that plays a huge part in my band's daily discussions. It's good to hear the opinions of so many regular players.

I truly believe it to be a two way street. First and foremost a band needs to have its act together performance wise, musically and with whatever followers they have. If you have a great show that's well executed and a system that lets you connect with the people who have enjoyed seeing you before then you're in a good position. Venues need to also work on building a following based on good service, a good environment and a selection of regular good entertainment. The combination of both parties fulfilling their part can surely expect to at least make the most of the local potential for music lover business.

Yes venues can be very frustrating and as a band that plays week in week out we don't expect our friends to turn out every week and as mentioned in the op's link this is not really the ideal solution for a venue. We do however work really hard at getting people to subscribe to all our social media. This includes talking to audiences before, during and after each gig. The half time interval is so so important when it comes to forging friendships with punters. We are then able to promote gigs in a bid to get the locals to come see us when we're in town. In return we ask a sensible fee from the venue. It is also up to them to do as much promotion as possible. We will supply them posters but they need to make sure they take care of their own business.

Basically what I'm saying is that yes venues have the ultimate responsibility but bands also need to make themselves attractive. We all know some bands will play for peanuts but in that case we need to up our game and deliver quality backed up with a sensible marketing tactic.

Oh BTW if people get up and dance - no matter which way they face take it as a compliment.