Help with cab selection to bi-amp my Ric

[Beedster]

Quiet day at work so.....

Really regret selling my Mesa 1516EV a while back, but given it required a truck, took two of us to get it into said truck, and a room of its own away from anything breakable at home, I guess it was inevitable. I now use a lovely Mesa Powerhouse 1x15 as my mainstay cab bt am looking to upsize and bi-amp my Ric. I recently picked up an SWR 2x10 but it doesn't sit quite as well with my Mesa 1x15 as I'd hoped. So, I was going to buy a Powerhouse 2x10 but recently used a 1x15 + 2x10 Powerhouse setup and whilst I liked it, it didn't seem to have the power of my old 1516. So I started to wonder if another combination might be better, in fact, I'm really starting to think about having two 1x15s, especially given how great the tone is from the one I've got already. I play heavy flats through two valve preamps (TE V-Type and Ampeg SVT-II) then through two Peavey valve power amps, and am looking for a fat but articulate retro tone. Thoughts?

I don't need to bi-amp of course, no-one in the audience (or probably even the band*) is going to notice a whole lot of difference in tone, but hey, having got currently both basses and amps I'm really happy with, I've really got to mess about with something

Chris

* or even me.....

Edited February 23, 2012 by Beedster

[xgsjx]

I didn't bother voting as it's up to you. If you like the sound of your 15, then get another. If you don't then go & try some cabs.
Mixing cabs (as you probably have found out) can give unpredictable results, sometimes good & sometimes not so good.

[umph]

get a guitar amp for the bridge, put it on full

[xgsjx]

[quote name='umph' timestamp='1330002401' post='1551128']
get a guitar amp for the bridge, put it on full
[/quote]

And point it at the guitarist?

[Beedster]

Thanks guys. Yep, veering toward another 1x15 as the cab in question won't be exclusively for bi-amping the Ric, but will need to be there for adding more clout generally if needs be (must admit I'm kinda keen to see how a pair of Powerhouse 1x15s do as HiFi speakers ). I've tried the guitar amp thing and it wasn't quite what i was after, and it looked crap

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='umph' timestamp='1330002401' post='1551128']
get a guitar amp for the bridge, put it on full
[/quote]+1. Bi-amping with two bass cabs accomplishes zilch.
[quote]I've tried the guitar amp thing and it wasn't quite what i was after,[/quote]That suggest that bi-amping is not what you want to do. Perhaps you mean stereo. .
[quote]it looked crap [/quote]Only guitar'd players should care more about how their rig looks than how it sounds.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Beedster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1330017710' post='1551553']
+1. Bi-amping with two bass cabs accomplishes zilch.
That suggest that bi-amping is not what you want to do. Perhaps you mean stereo. .
Only guitar'd players should care more about how their rig looks than how it sounds.
[/quote]

Thanks Bill

Not sure I agree with Point 1 (having tried it a few times). Point 2, not after a stereo bass effect for sure, but it would be fun to try the HiFi thing, if only to scare the neighbours, Point 3, I agree entirely

Just to reiterate, I think a lot of this comes down to taste, and most Ric players I know prefer a certain tone which is perhaps different to mine. I play heavy flats and prefer both PUPs wide open, with a pronounced 'click' and punchy attack from the bridge PUP with a full on rumble underneath from the neck PUP (I don't use a pick but have enough nail on my first two plucking fingers to go for a soft flesh only finger style to using nail and getting quite a fast pick-like attack). No doubt I can get this without bi-amping, but the few experiments I've tried so far allow for far more control over the tone when I do by amp then when i don't. And like I said, it's a slow day at work

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1330018732' post='1551580']
Thanks Bill

Not sure I agree with Point 1 (having tried it a few times). Point 2, not after a stereo bass effect for sure, but it would be fun to try the HiFi thing, if only to scare the neighbours, Point 3, I agree entirely

Just to reiterate, I think a lot of this comes down to taste, and most Ric players I know prefer a certain tone which is perhaps different to mine. I play heavy flats and prefer both PUPs wide open, with a pronounced 'click' and punchy attack from the bridge PUP with a full on rumble underneath from the neck PUP (I don't use a pick but have enough nail on my first two plucking fingers to go for a soft flesh only finger style to using nail and getting quite a fast pick-like attack). No doubt I can get this without bi-amping, but the few experiments I've tried so far allow for far more control over the tone when I do by amp then when i don't. And like I said, it's a slow day at work 's
[/quote]I don't believe you know what bi-amping is. It's running a single source into a two-way speaker system with an active crossover and two amps, one for each passband, rather than a single amp with a passive crossover. What you're describing is simple stereo, two full range cabs with independent sources independently powered. 'Stereo effect' is what happens if you have the two speakers horizontally separated by six feet or more, When placed vertically there is no stereo effect. The preferred setup would have the bridge pickup cab on top.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Beedster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1330026398' post='1551744']
I don't believe you know what bi-amping is. It's running a single source into a two-way speaker system with an active crossover and two amps, one for each passband, rather than a single amp with a passive crossover. What you're describing is simple stereo, two full range cabs with independent sources independently powered. 'Stereo effect' is what happens if you have the two speakers horizontally separated by six feet or more, When placed vertically there is no stereo effect. The preferred setup would have the bridge pickup cab on top.
[/quote]

OK, looks like I'n not bi-amping then. Not really stereo I'm after either. Bridge cab on top is what I've done in the past (the Mesa 1516 didn't give me a whole lot of options in that respect), and I loved it. FWIW Bill, I could certainly hear a substantial difference between the same instrument (Ric 4003 FL) going through one channel and then into the 1516, and the same bass going through two channels and then each into the two separate inputs of the 1516. While I'll admit that part of this was the different EQ on each channel, even flat there was a significant and pleasing difference.

Assuming then that it's stereo and not bi-amping I'm after, what combination would you recommend?

Chris

[BB2000]

One of my mates went through this a few years back. We experimented with the stereo output through a stereo splitter into a pair of amps/speakers to see what the so called stereo affect was all about. Couldn't see the point myself (some interesting phasing effect as you wandered across the sound stage, but that's something I'd rather not have). Ended up trying a bi-amp msystem using the mono output through a Yamaha PB-1 (which has a built in active crossover) into a PA bass bin and a 2x10 - now that did sound good. I'm a big fan of bi-amping myself if you can put up with the hassle of extra kit.

[Mr. Foxen]

For the dual mono thing, neck pickup to clean maybe scooped bass rig and bridge one to middly driven guitar one is the way to big sound. Bye bye rhythm guitarist though.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1330032844' post='1551898']
For the dual mono thing, neck pickup to clean maybe scooped bass rig and bridge one to middly driven guitar one is the way to big sound. Bye bye rhythm guitarist though.
[/quote]

Yep, that's a big sound, almost too big for me. I kinda do the opposite, a really clean and sweet back PUP and quite a lot of drive on the neck. Not quite so in yer face, but a really articulate top with a really quite nice and gut-moving presence if needed works for me

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1330027054' post='1551759']
OK, looks like I'n not bi-amping then. Not really stereo I'm after either. Bridge cab on top is what I've done in the past (the Mesa 1516 didn't give me a whole lot of options in that respect), and I loved it. FWIW Bill, I could certainly hear a substantial difference between the same instrument (Ric 4003 FL) going through one channel and then into the 1516, and the same bass going through two channels and then each into the two separate inputs of the 1516. While I'll admit that part of this was the different EQ on each channel, even flat there was a significant and pleasing difference.

Assuming then that it's stereo and not bi-amping I'm after, what combination would you recommend?

Chris
[/quote]Normally you use identical cabs with stacking, but as you have two sources there's no need for that. Trial and error is your best bet, until you find what you like the best, I'd start with a 15 on the bottom 12 on the top.

[xgsjx]

What might be a good idea for the Ric is to put the 2 different pickups through different fx. Maybe put the neck p/u through something like an overdrive with all the top rolled off (maybe an EQ or LPF) & have the bridge p/u clean & then mix the 2 channels together & back into the 1 amp?

Just an alternative idea for the dual outs.

[Beedster]

Thanks for the above guys, I appreciate the input. I started reflecting on the rigs that have worked for me in the past and those that haven't, and realised that the homer were always matched speakers (Mesa 2x12, Bag End 2x15), whilst as suggested above, I've had mixed/unpredictable results with mixed cabs. So, I'm going for another Powerhouse 1x15 to give me some extra grunt for mono whilst giving me some stereo options.

Chris

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1330122759' post='1553216']
, I've had mixed/unpredictable results with mixed cabs.
[/quote]That's because different cabs have different reponses, which don't always play well togther. But if you're running separate pickups into separate amps having speakers with different responses isn't a concern. I suggested a twelve on top with the bridge pickup as that pickup has more highs, less lows, and a twelve or even perhaps a ten may work better with it than a fifteen where you already have the fifteen on the neck pickup to handle the lows.

[Beedster]

Thanks Biil et al. Still trying to decide between a 1x15 which will probably be more use when I'm not playing stereo and a 1x12 or 2x10 which will be more use when I am. Lucky that most UK outlets are out of stock at present anyway!

Have to say I like the look of the Mesa 2x12

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Bass_Cabs/PowerhouseCABS/PHbass2x12-LG.htm

but for whatever reason have always been a little suspicious of diagonally orientated cabs?

C

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1330338567' post='1555767']


but for whatever reason have always been a little suspicious of diagonally orientated cabs?

[/quote]Justifiably. That's not the best way to make a cab, vertical drivers is, and if they don't know how drivers should be placed you must wonder what else they don't know. Not that they're alone in faulty engineering practice by any means, the guys who get it right are distinctly in the minority. But that shortens the list to choose from.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1330348626' post='1555942']
Justifiably. That's not the best way to make a cab, vertical drivers is, and if they don't know how drivers should be placed you must wonder what else they don't know. Not that they're alone in faulty engineering practice by any means, the guys who get it right are distinctly in the minority. But that shortens the list to choose from.
[/quote]

Thanks Bill, and I would guess that, to a certain extent, a 1x15 topped by a 2x10 forms two diagonal pairs?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1330350638' post='1555988']
Thanks Bill, and I would guess that, to a certain extent, a 1x15 topped by a 2x10 forms two diagonal pairs?
[/quote]Absolutely. When drivers aren't vertical dispersion is lost. That's one of the reasons why the 4x10 configuration makes no sense. Ostensibly tens are used due to the generally higher frequency response they're capable of. But when placed side by side the dispersion of those highs, and of the mids as well, is halved.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1330355097' post='1556062']
Absolutely. When drivers aren't vertical dispersion is lost. That's one of the reasons why the 4x10 configuration makes no sense. Ostensibly tens are used due to the generally higher frequency response they're capable of. But when placed side by side the dispersion of those highs, and of the mids as well, is halved.
[/quote]

Which is, possibly, why I've never liked 4x10s but always like the two 2x10s stacked vertically, despite the associated health and safety issues!

Thanks once again Bill, I'm pretty sure it's going to be another 1x15 for this rig. What I lose in real ronal difference between speakers I'll gain in increased usage for when I'm not in stereo, and given i'm running two decent pre-amps into these, I probably get enough tonal difference in PUPs and Pre's to get away with little at the coal face so to speak.

[charic]

I've recently been thinking a TC RH450 + RS210 for the neck pickup and a Markbass Amp/Cab for Bridge and effects