Best £45 you will ever spend.

[lurksalot]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334653394' post='1619043']
Well its not that it wont work, its by how much and in what conditions it works best.

There may well be situations where the amount it changes the output in the room and/or on stage are so negligable that carrying the extra kit isnt worth it.


[/quote]

I have to argue with this ,

In a past life I raced karts , and one thing it taught me was , if you have ANY related kit or tools , take them with you , you will never know when you need it.
Every circuit I raced was different for gearing , carburation , tyres and wing settings in the same way every room you play has different acoustics.
I grant you that performance on a track is objectively measured with a stopwatch , but if you have tools that may just help find the sound that suits the room why leave them at home
I carry all sorts of connectors, adaptors, leads and converters in a kit bag everywhere , the amount of times that they help smooth the set up , or show is minimal , but on one occassion if I hadn't carried a spare power amp the PA would have been down.
While I don't suggest you carry spare everything, sometimes the bit of kit at the back of your van just saves the day

[51m0n]

Lets be clear, I am sure it has an effect, but unless you are on an very resonant stage (its a bigger word than boomy, so it must be better, right ) I think that probably the distance from the boundaries of the room will probably have more effect on your overall sound for the punters.

'Coupling' is caused by reflection off a nearby surface, contact isnt necessary, but the distance from the surface is important, since certain distances from the surface will cause the reflected sound to be out of phase with the direct soudn at frequencies that are important to us bassists. This is comb filtering, and its the bane of anyine trying to create loud bass efficiently.

If you get your rig right against the back wall and on the floor you will get a theoretical 6db boost due to coupling, within a foot or so of either boundary and you are still getting useful coupling. Move further away and the results are bad until you are over 8 feet away. Its all down to wavelengths of given frequencies and so forth.

I fully intend to make my own one of these to see if I can measure a difference at some point, but it will be a while as I'm snowed under right now.

I would think the advantage to having one under you rig if your rig is upstairs and you want to save the family from hearing it could be very large though. Clearly that would present a significant barrier to energy, however small, travelling from the rig and resonating the floor/joists/ceiling causing a relatively quiet volume to be loud downstairs. So I fully accept that on a resonant stage or very resonant floor controlling the direct radiation of energy could prove to be very helpful.

I'm just not entirely convinced of its application in the same room on a concrete floor so much. But there are bound to be cases where it does help, and probably very few where it really makes things worse. So the "I always use it" brigade are unlikely to be far wrong much of the time.

Personally I get my 410 up as close to head heigth as I can (yup top cones at eyeline if possible), I need less volume to hear it loudly in the mix that way, and the sound is genuinely more of what I want when I do this.

[51m0n]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1334700626' post='1620121']
I have to argue with this ,

In a past life I raced karts , and one thing it taught me was , if you have ANY related kit or tools , take them with you , you will never know when you need it.
Every circuit I raced was different for gearing , carburation , tyres and wing settings in the same way every room you play has different acoustics.
I grant you that performance on a track is objectively measured with a stopwatch , but if you have tools that may just help find the sound that suits the room why leave them at home
I carry all sorts of connectors, adaptors, leads and converters in a kit bag everywhere , the amount of times that they help smooth the set up , or show is minimal , but on one occassion if I hadn't carried a spare power amp the PA would have been down.
While I don't suggest you carry spare everything, sometimes the bit of kit at the back of your van just saves the day
[/quote]

Because last time you went you took the device, measured its effect and found it to be negligable or detrimental, so it is rendered unnecesary this time. Room acoustics and staging dont tend to change often.

[lurksalot]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334700878' post='1620127']
Because last time you went you took the device, measured its effect and found it to be negligable or detrimental, so it is rendered unnecesary this time. Room acoustics and staging dont tend to change often.
[/quote]

Ah yes , If I can remember what I used , and if it worked

[51m0n]

Yeah good point

[51m0n]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1334699481' post='1620103']
And you did all that without mentioning compression!

Spot on mate, especially 'There may well be situations where the difference is profound and not what is wanted.' Te thirst for 'sonic perfection/control/purity' means it may simply not sound so good to the punters. Good, emotionally satisfying sound often sits at the interface of multiple acoustic imperfections after all
[/quote]

Ha! That cant be true or more punters would rate the multiple acoustic imperfections that make up my bass playing

[icastle]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334653394' post='1619043']
And as for endorsees proving something is worth having, I give you.... [url="http://www.essentialsound.com/wooten-musiccord-pro-power-cord/index.htm"]Mr VW and his amazing Power Lead[/url]
[/quote]
All that proves is that some numpty has either wasted his money or got paid a silly amount of money to put his name to a product.
Auralex supplies the likes of Shure,Technics and numerous other companies (and NASA!) that aren't going to be suckered quite as easily - these aren't endorsees, they're customers.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334653394' post='1619043']
So lets not ever let ourselves get carried away wih the hard sell please!
[/quote]

Hard sell?
Is that what it's called when someone doesn't agree with a minority who decide to swim upstream?

[51m0n]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1334703547' post='1620168']
All that proves is that some numpty has either wasted his money or got paid a silly amount of money to put his name to a product.
Auralex supplies the likes of Shure,Technics and numerous other companies (and NASA!) that aren't going to be suckered quite as easily - these aren't endorsees, they're customers.
[/quote]

And customers like Nassa buy products based upon empirical data.

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1334703547' post='1620168']
Hard sell?
Is that what it's called when someone doesn't agree with a minority who decide to swim upstream?
[/quote]

Hard Sell being marketing in general.

Reread my posts, I dont say it cant work anywhere, I dont say it wont work anywhere, I merely suggesting that [i]this[/i] particular product doesnt seem to have any hard and fast data available for where and when it works best/worst.

Most companies producing that kind of kit (Aurallex included, but also RealTraps, GIK acoustics and many others) produce data sheets of how their kit changes things in the room. Can you point me to the published test results for this particular item?

Nasa, you can be sure, wouldnt use Auralex without data sheets to study.

I've said I can see some cases when it will work very well, and others where I cant.

Edited April 18, 2012 by 51m0n

[charic]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334735770' post='1620303']
I've said I can see some cases when it will work very well, and others where I cant.
[/quote]

Anechoic chamber?

[51m0n]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334741697' post='1620427']
Anechoic chamber?
[/quote]

Would be the best place to test its effectiveness on different surfaces (stages, directly on the floor etc)

Without the effect of room boundaries muddying the results.

[charic]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334748061' post='1620539']
Would be the best place to test its effectiveness on different surfaces (stages, directly on the floor etc)

Without the effect of room boundaries muddying the results.
[/quote]

I meant as a place where it wouldn't make any difference

[Rumple]

Mine has just arrived but it will be June 10th before I get a chance to try it out with the band in a rehearsal room.

[51m0n]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334748096' post='1620540']
I meant as a place where it wouldn't make any difference
[/quote]

I know, but it should make the most obvious diff in an anechoic chamber, since the boundaries wont muddy the result.

Put a cab on various staging, with and without the Auralex device, and do a frequency sweep through the cab, measuring from a fixed point relative to the cab each time.

The diff between Gramma Pad and no Gramma pad can then be shown on different stages/floors etc.

As soon as you try this measurement in an acoustically reverberant space the data is muddled by the reflections, and you end up measuring the space not the device.

Edited April 18, 2012 by 51m0n

[charic]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334752564' post='1620653']
I know, but it should make the most obvious diff in an anechoic chamber, since the boundaries wont muddy the result.

Put a cab on various staging, with and without the Auralex device, and do a frequency sweep through the cab, measuring from a fixed point relative to the cab each time.

The diff between Gramma Pad and no Gramma pad can then be shown on different stages/floors etc.

As soon as you try this measurement in an acoustically reverberant space the data is muddled by the reflections, and you end up measuring the space not the device.
[/quote]

Yepski, if all goes to plan sometime in the future I'll get to spent significant time work with anechoic chambers

[51m0n]

Oh, you'll love that!

[charic]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334753784' post='1620684']
Oh, you'll love that!
[/quote]

One day... still need to up my programming skills to be able to make it much more viable though.

Also need to hunt down some UK based companies who might be interested in making plugins and the like.

I wish there were more companies like TC Electronic and Line6 about too

[deanovw]

Well, I have just ordered one from Dolphin music. I will report back on its success.

The band I am in at the moment rehearses in a village hall , on stage. The bass boom is horrible.

[deanovw]

Just got in from tonight rehearsal. The verdict is that it does exactly what it says. The rest of the band commented on the difference. The horrible boom from the stage was eliminated and the overall volume of the band was noticeably less.

10/10 for the gramma pad.

[discreet]

Mmm... I'm into the concept of 'decoupling', but you don't necessarily need expensive foam to do that. Any way you can get the cab off the deck will work. I use a Markbass Mark Stand with my BFM J12 and that's just dinky doody. It's the twenty-first century equivalent of a beer crate (a beer crate would work too, if you can find one. Or a chair. Or anything, really).

[51m0n]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1335224339' post='1627728']
Mmm... I'm into the concept of 'decoupling', but you don't necessarily need expensive foam to do that. Any way you can get the cab off the deck will work. I use a Markbass Mark Stand with my BFM J12 and that's just dinky doody. It's the twenty-first century equivalent of a beer crate (a beer crate would work too, if you can find one. Or a chair. Or anything, really).
[/quote]

+1 I get my cab up high because I want to predominantly hear the output of my cab, not the output of my cab bounced off the floor and the back wall through a gyrating wall of meat (well a few punters trying to have a chat). It sounds better to me up their on stage, and if there is no PA support IME it sounds better out in the audience too. Of course better is a subjective thing, if I were in a dub band (as if) then my better would be a very differnt thing....

[pete.young]

I borrowed one of these from Dave.c for a couple of gigs last weekend and I have to say I'm impressed.

Gig no. 1 was in a large marquee on a stage about 4 feet off the ground - a steel or aluminium framed structure which looked like it was based on a trailer. Bass player uses a Yamaha EUB through a Hartke kickback and DI's into the PA. Stage sound is normally boomy even on a concrete floor - this time it was much tighter, more focussed and the sound on stage meant we could hear everything more clearly as a result. It was an improvement from when we played the same gig last year.

Gig no. 2 was in a small pub in Ipswich (The Spreadeagle, for locals) which has recently installed a 'stage', a 6-inch high wooden structure (more of an overgrown drum riser). I was on bass, used my EBS cab (slightly larger than the pad) and Markbass head. Cab within a foot of the back wall. I've played the venue several times before and once again I think my sound was a definite improvement.

So for me, it's worked well and I'll probably buy one.

I don't understand why using a stand will reduce the amount of vibration transmitted to the floor. It seems to me that any stand capable of holding up a 2x12 or 4x10 is going to be very rigid and will transmit the same amount of vibration to the floor as the cab would. Anyone?

[Happy Jack]

I'm guessing that the stand doesn't actually reduce the amount of vibration - instead it raises the cab closer to the player's ears so that it sounds different and (probably) clearer.

[Paul S]

I have just bought one of the Studio Spares version, which works out around £10 cheaper - at £34 posted it is almost too cheap to even think about making anything. But have yet to use it in anger. One of my bands (if I still have two, another story) now has a regular slot at a place (Essex Arms, Brentwood if locals know it) where the stage is *really* boomy. I should be able to make a direct comparsion.

[4 Strings]

Yeah, Essex Arms, both my lads have gigged there over recent years. Make sure you keep the back door closed!

A stand, no matter how rigid, will offer dampening of vibrations, not all but will reduce transmittance to the floor. Not their intention but it will happen (unless its on spikes like your hi-fi stands).

Flat bottomed cabs onto unflat floor/stage/ground will cause distorted sound, you may or may not hear this effect. A pad will knock this out, and as far as I can see, will be the only audible effect. Having said that, I haven't tried one and despite so many thinking £45 is loose change, its not to me, its almost half my gig money so I'm afraid its something else to remember that I won't leave behind anywhere.

[icastle]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1335344361' post='1629444']
I don't understand why using a stand will reduce the amount of vibration transmitted to the floor. It seems to me that any stand capable of holding up a 2x12 or 4x10 is going to be very rigid and will transmit the same amount of vibration to the floor as the cab would. Anyone?
[/quote]

Only a guess, but could it be something to do with reducing the surface area?