Cutting through the mix - I believe I have found the problem

[musophilr]

FWIW I've also found that mids help the bass more than bass does.

[essexbasscat]

I had the OP's problem too, it was at it's worst when the guitarist tried out a 4 x 10 cab with a valve head. My rig of the time was a bit light on the lower frequencies, so he ended up with more bass than me Thankfully, we're good friends, so he listened when I pointed out the situation to him.

I solved the problem by showing him and the other guitarist a page that illustrates where the same notes are on the guitar and the bass, then doing it in practice.
They then realised that their lowest strings were in the same range as my top string and that played together, the same frequencies can easily swamp a song and the overall sound.

As a result, things have been much better lately. I don't blame our guitarist for trying to get a sound that pleases him though, as that's what we spend so much time doing too !!!

[Judo Chop]

So it's like a sonic jigsaw? Trying to fit into your space without treading on everyone elses turf

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Darkstrike' timestamp='1330135799' post='1553338']
Crank your mids, if they're taking the bass and treble, slice straight through that big 'ol hole.
[/quote]

Bingo.

[Doctor J]

[quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1330135525' post='1553331']
We have a Marshall JCM2000 60W TSL602 set as follows:[list]
[*]Clean - Gain 10 : Treble 10 : Middle 3 : Bass 10
[*]Crunch - Gain 7 : Volume 7
[*]Lead - Gain 8 : Volume 9
[*]Crunch/Lead controls Treble 8 : Middle 3 : Bass 10
[/list]
[/quote]
That's classic rock tone? It's the tone of someone not used to playing with other people.

By way of contrast, my last gig was on guitar in Metal band with a very heavy sound and I had my Fryette 60W head set like this
Gain 7, Treble 6.5, Mid 7.5, Bass 4.5, Volume 3 and it left [url="http://www.justinmaloney.com/anbwt.zip"]plenty of room for bass[/url] while still being nice and heavy. I frequently got compliments on my tone from proper guitarists, most of whom did the whole boosted low end thing themselves. If your guitarists have eq pedals, get them to try boosting their tone around the 1-2k mark and drastically removing the low end. You'll be amazed at how much everything will clear up. They'll be happier, you'll be happier and your punters will be happier

[jakenewmanbass]

Most peoples understanding of frequency range in a room is seriously wanting, I work with 2 guys that have conversations like this....
"how does the guitar sound out front?"
"it's a bit toppy"
"ok I'll put some bass on it then"
CLANG
that's the sound of me hitting him in the face with a shovel.

You need 4 things:
1. a length of straw, about 12 inches with barley attached at the end,
2. a well rehearsed west country accent
3. a small tractor.
4. a shotgun


In the sound check jump on your tractor with straw in corner of mouth, drive across the stage and point the shotgun in the guitarists face, and in your best Chippenham drawl bellow...
GET ORFF MOI FREQWANSEE....

If he refuses, shoot him in the face and hang him at the back of the stage as a warning to the other guitarist

Edited February 25, 2012 by jakenewmanbass

[jakenewmanbass]

In all seriousness, bands that sound great are ones that understand the sound stage and can play to a room, if you fill a room with low end from all sorts of sources it will sound like a room full of low end... awful.
You need a proper dialogue where everyone understands how they should sit in the mix...
So in truth it's not your fault, but in my experience bass players tend to put overall sound above their own, those that don't mostly sound rubbish

Edited February 25, 2012 by jakenewmanbass

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1330135525' post='1553331']
Did comment of the settings, particularly the bass as potentially "invading my space" butr apparently set other than this and it squeals.
[/quote]

Source of all the bass problems!!
It's squealing because your guitarist is a douche. Gain setting and his guitar are causing the squeals not the amps EQ.
This setting may be ok for him at rehearsals but with the added boundry effects on stages etc it's multiplying this bottom end by at least 6db!!

the only thing i can suggest is do as much learning as possible. for instance [url="http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm[/url] helped me a lot, not just EQ and set up the bass rig, but it a lot is true for guitars and guitar amps too.

At rehearsals I cut the bass and treble on both guitar amps, and boost the mids, then set the gain and master. The bass amp should be the loudest thing in there (except the vocals) not that it should over shadow everything by any means, but it should naturally be louder to hear the actual lows. Even so at rehearsals I cut the bass (on the LMTUBE this is set at 40hz) and boost the low mids, still sounds low and loud but not undefined wooly mess.

This works for me in that room, but it may vastly be different where you play.

You have a super awesome cab and amp, and for me the settings you describe are very useable (the streamliner has a lot of bottom)

A lot of getting the sound right is about compromise, if they say you have too much bass you have to do your best to accomodate, but from where things are now you need to seriously talk about this sound issue. Sound guys are putting high pass on so evidently they don't need all that bottom, they just don't see it.

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1330168043' post='1553594']
Those guitar setting are a "bedroom sound".[/quote]

THIS!!!

[Doctor J]

It's worth saying that no matter what you do to your bass settings, your band is going to sound poor until the guitar tone is sorted, because those settings will be interfering with everything. If they can subdue the ego for a little while and use their ears to listen to the band as a whole and how the guitar works in the context of your whole band sound.

You need to explain this to them if it's something they're not aware of.

[dmccombe7]

Is your gtr squealing issue not down to the fact he is over-driving an amp that is not suited to the volumes and style of music being played. Did you mention it was 65W with full treble setting. ?
Any live sound engineer will tell you that a high treble on a maxed amp is one of the main cause of feedback. Same goes for mics.
Once the delay / effects pedals are added to his already over-driven sound you are walking straight into the mix from hell.
He either needs to control his amp and use stage monitoring to boost his volume otherwise this won't go away.

As for the bass - already stated often enough in this thread - use the low mids to cut the mix.

Will be curious to find out how this pans out. I've seen this issue so many times over the years.
Guitarists who don't understand the simplest issue of tone control.

Good luck
Dave

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1330180956' post='1553808']In all seriousness, bands that sound great are ones that understand the sound stage and can play to a room,[/quote]

TBH I think in the bad-sounding bands it's mostly ego to blame. So-and-so wants to sound good at the expense of everything else.

I think a lot of bands would sound better if they swapped instruments. Less showing off to do and more playing music.

[Gust0o]

My guitarist is exactly the same, and I've posted about it before - maybe we should have a thread of posting our guitarist's settings and diagnosing the EQ problems?

Lozz is totally spot on that they're "bedroom settings" - this is where a lot of them are coming directly from!

[KiOgon]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1330180734' post='1553804']
Most peoples understanding of frequency range in a room is seriously wanting, I work with 2 guys that have conversations like this....
"how does the guitar sound out front?"
"it's a bit toppy"
"ok I'll put some bass on it then"
CLANG
that's the sound of me hitting him in the face with a shovel.

You need 4 things:
1. a length of straw, about 12 inches with barley attached at the end,
2. a well rehearsed west country accent
3. a small tractor.
4. a shotgun


In the sound check jump on your tractor with straw in corner of mouth, drive across the stage and point the shotgun in the guitarists face, and in your best Chippenham drawl bellow...
GET ORFF MOI FREQWANSEE....

If he refuses, shoot him in the face and hang him at the back of the stage as a warning to the other guitarist
[/quote]
Excellent

[garethfriend]

Our singer also does rhythm guitar, he can play guitar but isn't really interested in guitars, amps, EQ or anything technical. As a result he pretty much lets the rest of the band set everything up for him as so he can be heard and doesn't get in anyone else's frequencies. Shame more guitarists who don't know about this stuff don't have the maturity to to put their hands up and say "I don't really know what I'm doing can you guys help".

[WalMan]

[quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1330180588' post='1553801']
That's classic rock tone? It's the tone of someone not used to playing with other people.
[/quote] It's the tone of a guitarist I've been plaing with for nearly 30 years . 'tother guitarist has much easier settings
[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1330180734' post='1553804']
In the sound check jump on your tractor with straw in corner of mouth, drive across the stage and point the shotgun in the guitarists face, and in your best Chippenham drawl bellow...
GET ORFF MOI FREQWANSEE....

If he refuses, shoot him in the face and hang him at the back of the stage as a warning to the other guitarist
[/quote]Tried GITORFMOILAAAAAND last night to no avail

Otherwise, thanks for the comments and you're largely preaching to the converted.

I have been playing with this drummer for pretty much all my playing life, and the rest of the band nearly as long. All good mates, which makes life much easier, but I have been getting a bit p'ed recently with getting the blame for things I am not entirely convinced are me (for example the wolf notes the other guitarist was getting in the second set that I think are not actually me, but guitarist #1). Trouble is we're all getting longer in the tooth & deafer

Oh, and I have a gramma. which has tightened stuff up

Last nights gig is an odd one as it is one of those poxy pub gigs in what is in effect a converted Victorian/Edwardian house where we are i one room, there is an arch through to what was probably the large entrance hall originally, then another set of arches to the bar.

As before tonights task is to hit the 600 mids roll of bass & top along with the master, and come what may NOT dig in when I have difficulty hearing myself and NOT touch anything ESPECIALLY the master. I may even photograph my settings at the start and end of the night as proof (to myself if noone else)

[Highfox]

I think you have found the problem, It must those damn guitards! I'm using a Streamliner 600 through a GB212 and a P -bass with flats ( hint, hint) and manage to cut through very easily with the 2 guitarists I play with.
My setting are nearly the same as yours but the mids I have boosted to about 3 O'clock and set to 600 freq.

[gjones]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1330164274' post='1553504']
Your guys need a bit of education about layering sound.
They can't just turn up and play what to them is a great sound and be oblivious to what space everyone else needs...plus there are two of them...!!
[/quote]

They're guitarists it's in their nature.

[Conan]

In most bands I've played in over the years, every musician is too keen to point out the perceived inadequacies of everyone else's sound instead of looking at their own. It's always someone else's problem. As long as this view persists there will be issues.

Part of the problem is where we spend most of our time playing and practising. For most of us in amateur or semi-pro bands this will be in our own houses. We set up a tone that sounds pleasing in that particular environment and then stick with that tone when we move into the full band scenario. It almost always doesn't work.

It's a shame that ego also gets in the way. Guitarists and singers are, of course, particularly prone to this. They know everything and we know nothing. It seems to be the way of the world...

[dmccombe7]

This is always a difficult one. At last 6hr reahearsal we decided to set up slightly different with my bass amp moving to another position. Slightly more forward (away from back wall area)
I left the settings as they were because from where i was standing just in front of amp it sounded pretty good with a nice even tone.
Band were happy or so i thought.
On the last hour i moved out front for some odd reason during the song and noted my amp had less depth than normal. It was very thin. No-one commented during the first 5 hrs - WHY NOT ???
Re-positioned my amp nearer wall and adjusted my tone to suit. Now bought a Gramma board for todays rehearsal see if it helps.
What worries me is that band didn't comment although they all noticed it sounded different. Maybe I'm an ogre and they were scared to say anything in case of offending
Guitarist and keyboard sounded exact same.
Bass tone is so bloomin tempremental.
Normally it wouldn't really make a difference as front of house would adjust to suit main mix anyroads.

To be fair our gtr adjusts his tone a lot to suit songs and by that i mean the Bass, Mid, Treb as well as his effect sound. He keeps everything pre-programmed on his laptop for each track. Over complicated for me as i'm used to gtr players with hundreds of floor pedals and wasting time setting them up for each track

Dave

[WalMan]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1330199307' post='1554146']
In most bands I've played in over the years, every musician is too keen to point out the perceived inadequacies of everyone else's sound instead of looking at their own. It's always someone else's problem. As long as this view persists there will be issues.

Part of the problem is where we spend most of our time playing and practising. For most of us in amateur or semi-pro bands this will be in our own houses. We set up a tone that sounds pleasing in that particular environment and then stick with that tone when we move into the full band scenario. It almost always doesn't work.

It's a shame that ego also gets in the way. Guitarists and singers are, of course, particularly prone to this. They know everything and we know nothing. It seems to be the way of the world...
[/quote]Yup. Perhaps it's me. "Remove the mote from your eye" etc etc
[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1330248425' post='1554447']
Bass tone is so bloomin tempremental.
[/quote]Ain't that the truth!!

So last night I stuck to plan bass & treble rolled back, 600hx mids boosted. inputs rolled back, master a micrometre from completely off, and spent most of the night managing not to dig in.

IMO the bass sounded cr@p and barely audible to me, but everyone else was happy with their nice full fat sounds and the rowd were enjoying themselves....so that's OK Still I haven't listened back to the recording so perhaps that'll prove it's me all along............................meanwhile over in the Depression thread

Anyone want my rig? 'cos I think I might as well save some money and swap it for the cheapest, cr@piest one available. The Wal into the pedalboard with the Microbass II run into the effects return (the only input I can get to work) in the rubbish Trace combo in the studio at the prog r/h in the morning sounded great. Think I'l take the Orange 15 to r/h on Wednesday

MrsW said "are you happier tonight, Max said you weren't last night" before we started last night, so it was noticed but probably just put down to my hormones

[pietruszka]

[quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1330256616' post='1554608'] Yup. Perhaps it's me. "Remove the mote from your eye" etc etc Ain't that the truth!! So last night I stuck to plan bass & treble rolled back, 600hx mids boosted. inputs rolled back, master a micrometre from completely off, and spent most of the night managing not to dig in. IMO the bass sounded cr@p and barely audible to me, but everyone else was happy with their nice full fat sounds and the rowd were enjoying themselves....so that's OK Still I haven't listened back to the recording so perhaps that'll prove it's me all along............................meanwhile over in the Depression thread Anyone want my rig? 'cos I think I might as well save some money and swap it for the cheapest, cr@piest one available. The Wal into the pedalboard with the Microbass II run into the effects return (the only input I can get to work) in the rubbish Trace combo in the studio at the prog r/h in the morning sounded great. Think I'l take the Orange 15 to r/h on Wednesday MrsW said "are you happier tonight, Max said you weren't last night" before we started last night, so it was noticed but probably just put down to my hormones [/quote]

IME, that will be because the bass was rolled off. Iv said it before in this thread, the bass end of things should belong to the BASS PLAYER, not the guitarist, tell them to roll the bass right off and you roll yours back on. The overall sound will be full, weighty, punchy and everyone should be closer to where they should be.
I absolutely can't stand it when guitarists have an absolutely brilliant sound, who gives a flying sh*t? Just because the guitar sounds great on its own doesn't mean it will be great in the mix. I have a home setting and a gig setting; the home has a little more top and the live setting doesn't, I have a decent amount of bass, some reasonable lower mid and some upper mid. But thats what works for me. It sounds dreadful on its own but in the band it sounds great.

Thats generally the rule of thumb I follow, if it sounds nice on its own, it won't in the band.

Just my 2p.



Dan

[Lozz196]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1330258236' post='1554646']
I have a home setting and a gig setting; the home has a little more top and the live setting doesn't, I have a decent amount of bass, some reasonable lower mid and some upper mid. But thats what works for me. It sounds dreadful on its own but in the band it sounds great.

Thats generally the rule of thumb I follow, if it sounds nice on its own, it won't in the band.

Just my 2p.



Dan
[/quote]

Same for me, I know when my bass sounds scratchy and middy on its own, its going to work fine in the mix.

[WalMan]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1330258236' post='1554646']
IME, that will be because the bass was rolled off. Iv said it before in this thread, the bass end of things should belong to the BASS PLAYER, not the guitarist, tell them to roll the bass right off and you roll yours back on. The overall sound will be full, weighty, punchy and everyone should be closer to where they should be.
[/quote]You're not wrong, and preaching to the converted there.

I don't really have a "home" setting. For noodling/practising at home I either use the baby Orange practie combo, or headphones. It seems pointless to mess with setting at home in isolation.

Friday nights settings in the twin lead moments were (again IMO) exactly where they all needed to be mix, level & sound wise. The guitars were solid and the bass had a good full girth sound. It was in the other times when the bass from everything just became a swampy mess. Perhaps if I could get him to EQ the Clean channel for chords with the bass rolled right back on that at least (and to actually use that channel particularly in the second set) we would be getting somewhere.

[Gust0o]

Haha, I'm like the above - I don't so much have a home setting, as a [i]home amp![/i]

I use a small combo at home, meaning less work for my volume rig - so I keep the settings in place.

Does anyone have any advice for guitarists who won't listen? Any easy exercises to show the difference it can make? The only one I've tried was simply to change his settings when he had a piss and explain it all afterwards.

[nottswarwick]

IMO this is why stingrays just "work". Middy and unrefined on their own, brill in the live setting.