Cutting through the mix - I believe I have found the problem

[pietruszka]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1330262858' post='1554761']
Haha, I'm like the above - I don't so much have a home setting, as a [i]home amp![/i]

I use a small combo at home, meaning less work for my volume rig - so I keep the settings in place.

Does anyone have any advice for guitarists who won't listen? Any easy exercises to show the difference it can make? The only one I've tried was simply to change his settings when he had a piss and explain it all afterwards.
[/quote]
A swift kick in the baby makers?
Every one knows a 12 bar blues, go through that with how they would have it, have the guitarists one at a time go out and listen to it. Then you do the same and see what they say and can hear. Show them what happens when you piss on with eq. They also won't need to be as loud which every ones ears will thank you for.


Dan

[JTUK]

I'd just play them bass and drums together and suggest that this sound is underpinning the sound/mix...all happy, so far..?

Anything on top of that that cloiuds the sound will be down to them..and therefore theirs to rectify. Now, if they don't accept/can't
hear the difference or the point you a trying to make, then they have no chance of trying to fix it.

If you have to suggest that 2 guys playing Jaskon/Ibanex type gtrs through 4x12's is a really stupid sound set-up, then
you are fighting a losing battle..they aren't even off 1st base. It would be the question of what are they going for..?
and that they are oblivious to sounds and how to achieve them. Send them back to the bedroom,..there is no other way.

Unless you have good seperation, there is no way you can have two gtrs blatting out their sound.

Worse things on stage...oblivious musos types. You couldn't really call them players

[TimR]

This interactive frequency chart shows where each instuments characteristic frequencies lie.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

The main problem is that the fundamentals from the Bass aren't really what you're hearing because most rigs can't produce at the low frequencies, what they're producing is the frequencies around the fundamental frequencies that the guitars are producing. This is a fairly characteristic frequency for the guitar so you are a bit knackered really.

Boosting the mids will help as long as they are the right mids and not clashing with the mids from the guitar.

As has already been said: boost at around 550Hz to 2K and you'll be out of their area and everyone should be happy.

[dmccombe7]

Well after yesterdays rehearsal it went well although my plan to adjust my tone to suit live experience wasn't exactly as i thought.
I originally thought about boosting the lo mids ie 600Hz area as mentioned in this thread and that seemed fine but when band started playing it was felt not enough low end which i subsequently took to 1 o'clock position along with Mid at same.
That is my normal mix. However when covering Glenn Hughes type live sound i use an Ampeg SVT preset from my Roland GT-6B with some added high end and a touch of reverb. This sound cuts through the mix and seems to fit type of music far better. Everyone loves this sound however it seems to be a bit top ended for other classic rock type songs like Rainbow. ?

The other thing is i tried out my Gramma board for first time and whow - what a difference. No boom and drummer loved it.
Maybe that's the reason my bottom end dropped a bit. I wasn't hearing the original bottom end boom which i was mistaking for low bass.
Sad to admit that i never raelised it but cest la vie.

I'll keep working at it though.

I'm pretty lucky that my guitarist knows what tone is about and is able to maintain a pretty good mixed guitar sound for most songs.

I'm enjoying this thread - for someone with many yrs experience its still a learning curve and any advice is always welcome from fellow bassists who have also experienced similar issues.
Dave

[51m0n]

Musicians arent sound engineers, guitarists, vocalists, keyboard players and drummers can all over play and consume too much of the frequency spectrum with their eq settings. Both issues make it very hard for punters as well as the band to hear the music at any volume, at a gig its a disaster.

The advice above is all excellent, the band need to think as a whole not as a bunch of seperate parts. Take the time at a rehearsal to record the band with a Zoom H1 or equivalent as they currently are, then go around an dial out the excessive eq on the guitars (the mids are so much better sounding on a guitar in a mix anyway).

Do the same to yourself - you dont need to be boosting mids so much as not cuttting them to the point where the bass disappears in the mix. This is the balance that we all should be striving for, no one wants an imasculated sound, but then no one wants to be unheard - or perceived merely as a rumble of worse a hum - mids are the answer, but like all eqing what you should be aiming for is balancing the mix with the eq. A great big sad face may work for you but a lot of people complain of it sounding all nasal and horrid (often as a result of boosting the upper mids a little too much) even in a mix. You also need to be careful with low mids as they are full of mud that can make your bass sound like undiluted porridge (yes really - exactly like porridge;)).

As for levels, as a starter the bass should be set to the level of the kick, or just between the kick and the snare. No louder than that. This ususally means turning down, often by as much as a third with an acoustic kit - you will feel fear at this point!

Bring the guiatristas down so they blend with you (rhythm) and sit just above you (lead). The guitarists will complain that they can hear nothing at this point - get their amps up high and pointing at their heads, then double check the effect this has on the level.

Get the vocal over everything (which again can be a case of turning down) and use the graphic on the pa to dial out feedback. If the pa doesnt have a graphic, get one, and make it a 31 band graphic at that - they take 5 minutes to set up and more than double the available vocal volume before feedback.

Run the song through once then record it.

At home compare the mixes on a stereo - be sure to listen at the same level - the entire band will prefer the sound of the second mix, every time - or they are such prima donnas that you should consider getting out of the band.

Edited February 27, 2012 by 51m0n

[WalMan]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1330335532' post='1555698']The other thing is i tried out my Gramma board for first time and whow - what a difference. No boom and drummer loved it.
Maybe that's the reason my bottom end dropped a bit. I wasn't hearing the original bottom end boom which i was mistaking for low bass.
Sad to admit that i never raelised it but cest la vie.

I'm enjoying this thread - for someone with many yrs experience its still a learning curve and any advice is always welcome from fellow bassists who have also experienced similar issues.
Dave
[/quote]Yup first time I used the Gramma pad I actually ended up taking the rig off it in the break as the bass appeared to have disappeared - that was on a high boxy booming stage mind. I am now used to it and it certainly helps.

Life is one big learning curve isn't it!!

Must try some of Simon's suggestions - if I can get it through!!

[dmccombe7]

Agree with 51m0n on all points.
This exactly how we set up with the bass balancing against the bass drum although we tend to mic the bass drum at rehearsals simply because its always a little low in the mix with the other drums (note : its not the drummers own kit at rehearsals)
Once Drum and bass balanced the vox, gtr & kys are balanced accordingly.
I think it helps a lot when all musicians are into getting the correct balance of volume as well as tone.

With regards the Gramma pad I'm glad you had same experience as i wasn't too sure about it although I'm happier the sound will be more consistent at varying venues. - i hope

Dave

[mep]

Another for the low mids. I used to experience the same problem. I reset all the eq sliders on my TE AH200 and by boosting the low mids I slice through the mix a treat.

[JTUK]

Actually I'd agree that blithely adding low mids or this or that isn't always going to help you.
You potentially are flooding a mix so it becomes a fight over whose is more powerful/loud which is not where you need to be going.
You need your sounds to sit alongside each other.not get into a battle through a wall of noise.

What I would do is play my bass with the drums in a simpy pattern, I'd EQ the bass so I heard everything across my bass range
against this drum pattern. I would want gtr and keys to sit along side my bass rather than blow right over it. If it does the latter
then the gtr can easily overpwer you which what you have to avoid.
These instruments seem to be able to drop in and out of the band sound but the whole track works from bass/drums and that way
this carries the track. The gtr and keys and anyone else should have the status of embelishments in the track whereas the bass and drums are fundementals
so when they stop playing or solo, the track doesn't drop t the floor with a big hole in it. Most gtrs wash over EVERYTHING and do not realise that the world
will not end if they don't have a part to play. Keys are harder in that 88's can cover the whole spectrum which is why you want the piano player in the guy to drop
out his left hand.

As I said..the education starts with frequency choices but extends way into parts and how the gtr constructs those. This is why you are in trouble if the one gtr the gtr brings along is a LP or an Ibanez
I'll forgive the Les Paul,..just..

Edited February 27, 2012 by JTUK

[WalMan]

.....and so in a potentially happy tun of events we have an update from tonights r/h

ent along and to the Orange Crush25 (plus the main rig but left that in the car). Took it in and said "here's the new rig then" Surprisingly for quietish r/h's it will actually suffice.

ANYWAY. Working through a load of new songs, including a Foo's cover that is fairly dense on the guitar front. Played through it a couple of times, listened to live and studio versions and worked on it a bit more, then the vocalist says it was missing someting and the discussion was over which of the three guitar parts our two guitarists should be following. One was obvious as the riff, but the other that was what was really needed, was for held chords.

That led me to finally pluck up the courage to say something about tone settings. Stupid really that I mither about these things, but I am a great one for avoiding confrontation despite having know an played with these guys nearly half my life (more in the case of the drummer). So there was some harrumphing from the drummer about levels at gigs at times but I am pleased to say that the other guitarist backed me in the discussions re sonic space and the fact that a fair bit of the loud bass blame being hurled my was quite possibly not all me.

So we went round it looking at ways of re EQing the guitar referred to in the OP and the intention is to set up a full gear r/h and work through settings. The two guitarists already spend plenty of time making sure they are playing complimentary lines and not just chugging the same thing together, so hopefully if we can get he full r/h sorted we can find a way through.

Felt a bit awkward at times with 'tother guitarist backing my corner as it was a little like ganging up, but the comments were taken on board so we shall see.

Onwards & upwards

[hamfist]

Sounds like a very positive turn of events.