51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1330431939' post='1557290'] Don't take is personally mate, i was only thinking out loud. Generally speaking things done well sound good, but that is not quite what the OP was about! As ever, I bow to your expertise. C [/quote] Not taken personally at all chap! Just trying to come up with something concrete as evidence. This process allows the musicality to shine through. If you want to enhance the chances of this occuring for your band live then a bit of sensible 'preprocessing' of the individual sounds by the band in order to create a cohesive whole will really really help, be you in a tiny venue or the Albert Hall (actually especially in the Albert Hall, terrible issues with excessives reverb in there for years ) The smaller the gig the less the engineer (whoever that is) can do to rememdy the situation (due to stage spill as much as anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I agree that the idea of 'cutting through' suggests a certain tone and a certain approach that may not really work very well in a lot of circumstances. It does however suggest some concept of finding a space that may not really be the bass region in order to be heard. Where that space is depends on the rest of the band, the style, the arragement and to some extent the room too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1330429856' post='1557236'] As a further point wrt to mixing, the result is only ever as good as the song and the arrangement. [/quote] [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1330432327' post='1557297'] It's interesting that whenever this topic comes up, it's always discussion of frequency ranges and mixing and never anything about how the songs are arranged. If everybody's playing the same note or the same rhythm then nobody is going to 'cut through' - try thinking about harmony and syncopation a bit more. Or *horror* space! [/quote] Could not agree with you more! But great mixing is as much about getting the best oput of the arrangement as fiddling with eqs. Edited February 28, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalMan Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Just back from the lunchtime wander and had to chuckle when I picked up Bass Player mag and was flicking through while waiting for a till to be free, to seethe final article in the mag was The Grooveyard reprinting an article from 1993 called .........."[b]Defend Your Sonic Space[/b]" That was actually more bemoaning live sound engineers for goiung for a monster kick sound at the expense of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1330432519' post='1557301'] Not taken personally at all chap! Just trying to come up with something concrete as evidence. [/quote] Good stuff, hope I haven't blown my chances of getting you to mix our next album! C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1330433644' post='1557327'] Good stuff, hope I haven't blown my chances of getting you to mix our next album! C [/quote] Not at all mate, not at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1330433031' post='1557316'] Just back from the lunchtime wander and had to chuckle when I picked up Bass Player mag and was flicking through while waiting for a till to be free, to seethe final article in the mag was The Grooveyard reprinting an article from 1993 called .........."[b]Defend Your Sonic Space[/b]" That was actually more bemoaning live sound engineers for goiung for a monster kick sound at the expense of bass. [/quote] Yeah, I hate that so much - you get a kick threatening the foundations but the bass is just inaudible sub rumblings, wtf? Some venues make controlling bass incredibly difficult simply as a result of the design and structure, but as a very very general rule (and therefore often as not wrong) the larger the space the less this is an issue, and yet the bigger the venue the more this seems beyond the FOH engineer to sort out. Makes my blood boil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1330433031' post='1557316'] That was actually more bemoaning live sound engineers for goiung for a monster kick sound at the expense of bass. [/quote] Every sound guy I've ever worked with has spent an age EQing the bass drum and then simply checked that the bass guitar signal exists and been happy with that. Although to be fair I suppose there's not a lot to do with a bass signal until everything else is firing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1330432754' post='1557311'] Could not agree with you more![/quote] Sorry I did read your post above mine but somehow the first line just didn't go in... It's refreshing to see someone suggesting doing actual musical work instead of 'You'll never cut through with 15"s' or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1330415532' post='1556921'] A rose by any other name would smell as sweet... [/quote] Unless it's crapweed. Or stench blossom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1330437663' post='1557437'] Every sound guy I've ever worked with has spent an age EQing the bass drum and then simply checked that the bass guitar signal exists and been happy with that. Although to be fair I suppose there's not a lot to do with a bass signal until everything else is firing. [/quote] Which is of course utter nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1330437663' post='1557437'] Every sound guy I've ever worked with has spent an age EQing the bass drum and then simply checked that the bass guitar signal exists and been happy with that. Although to be fair I suppose there's not a lot to do with a bass signal until everything else is firing. [/quote] [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1330439520' post='1557484'] Which is of course utter nonsense. [/quote] I would have to agree. My sound engineer spends more time tuning the rhythm section (drums, percussion and bass) than any of the other instruments/singers. He's not the only FOH engineer I have worked with that does this. Even some monitor engineers I have worked with are just as particular. I take the same approach in the studio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I want to cut through with plenty of upper-mid grind . I can also play really gently and sit in the mix with the same settings. I'd actually rather do this than have to crank my amp to ridiculous levels cos the boominess is barely audible (like a lot of bassists do). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 If you get the foundation right then it becomes easier to lay the textures on top. Guitar can lose a lot of low end assumingthe rest of the band are supllying it (ie bass, keys) and in the context of the mix not sound remotely weak. At the end of the day though the vocal is (9 times out of 10) the one thing that gets the least cut from it. It carries the song to the punters, it is the single most important part of the band, it is the mix equivalent of the King and Queen together in chess, the most powerful piece of the show from an emotional point and the most defenseless, without which you have nothing. Simply because the punters are hanging off the melody and lyrics, their entire conscious perception of most songs starts with the melody. If you ask a punter to sing (insert well known song here) they will start with the melody line of the chorus and work out from there, they wont sing any other parts except the hooks that happen inbetween vocal parts. Subconsciously most people actually recognise an awful lot more than the vocal, but consciously its a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPodmore Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 To me, sitting in the mix is filling a hole thats already there, which is what the bass should be doing for the most part. Cutting is making a hole and attempting to fill it, which doesn't always work that way. Thats how i see it anyway. Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Thing is you cant cut through a hole that isnt there. If there is no hole you wont cut through it, you will compete in that area and thats when things become messy, which defeats the object.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1330385227' post='1556772'] I dunno to Drummers buy drums so they cut through the mix??? [/quote] Cymbals certainly, and snares as well. [quote] But if everyone is buying gear and setting up so they cut through the mix doesn't that mean that we're back to square one anyway?? [/quote] Not necessarily, I think it's mostly possible for everyone to set up in a way such that you're not all fighting for the same sonic frequencies. It's fairly subjective as to what cutting through really means, I don't think it's just about pure loudness either. Obviously, it becomes a problem where you've got guitars and bass directly competing against each other, ie really bass heavy guitars or a really twangy bass sound, which is when it can just become a loudness war. My guitarist is quite obsessed with my "note definition" even though he's got a really bassy, fairly muddy guitar sound for the style we play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacqueslemac Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I've always thought that "sitting in" referred more to the lines you play, while "cutting through" referred to the tone you use. In other words, I try to do both. I want my lines to complement what the drummer is doing while not contrasting with the guitars (except perhaps with the odd fill), but the tone I strive for is clear, rather than muddy. At a jam session last night (playing Hey Joe), the guitarist asked me to turn myself up because he didn't want to solo without the comfort of a solid bass sound behind him. Which was nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 My warwick streamer used to really 'cut through', lots of fast attack high mids. And for some things it sounded awesome. New pups in it and sits differently in the mix with the guys I play with, way more versatile. The P bass sits really really differently, and I can change how it works with the band just with my right hand. I always am of the opinion that I should love hearing the guitars, keys and vox. and if I am not working to make them sound as good as I can then I shouldn't be playing bass- sometimes it means realising that some songs don't even need bass on them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalMan Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1330441667' post='1557517'] If you get the foundation right then it becomes easier to lay the textures on top. Guitar can lose a lot of low end assumingthe rest of the band are supllying it (ie bass, keys) and in the context of the mix not sound remotely weak. [/quote] I seem to recall #2 son saying that when he was doing a sound production course the tutors had suggested a High Pass on guitars set at up to 1k would not leave them weedy, but give the space for everything to fit in, and IIRC when I tried that with some multitrack it did seem to be the case [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1330442348' post='1557531'] Thing is you cant cut through a hole that isnt there. If there is no hole you wont cut through it, you will compete in that area and thats when things become messy, which defeats the object.... [/quote]...which was really where my "Cutting through the mix" rant started, and as above what I really meant by that is what Beedster is referring to as "sitting in the mix". I just want my bit of the sonic spectrum to use and not have to EQ with effectively a sad face to stop mix mush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Rich Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I used to aim to have the capability to cut through if the song needed it by digging in harder or playing closer to the bridge, but most of the time I'd stay in the background. Whether that came through for the audience is anyone's guess. My Status preamps have a handy switch that boosts the mids by about 6db, plus a knob to set the frequency centre. Really handy for instantly adding a little presence without fundamentally changing anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 To me it's simple. You find the sound that "cuts through" - ie is clearly defined and in its own space - then you adjust the level of that sound so it sits nicely in the mix. Tadaa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The difference between playing live and mixing on a recording is exactly as Simon says. Too many musicians play their instruments as if they are soloing all of the time. Internal and external dynamics as well as arrangements are what are key. Especially as most of us don't have a sound engineer when we play live. Another aspect is appropriate volume for the size of the room. How many bands just turn up as loud as they can until limited by feedback or PA power? Instead of boosting guitar solos etc, the rest of the band would do well to come down in volume. Frequency mixing live is pretty hard to do when most of the players are using their own amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 [quote name='Dave Tipping' timestamp='1330385682' post='1556783'] My definition of cutting through would be.. being heard in the mix. i.e. not muddy and lost. It does ultimately boil down to the sound you are trying to create or replicate though. [/quote] Would agree with this. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 [quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1330382919' post='1556724'] I prefer sitting in the mix as people are less likely to notice when I f*ck up [/quote] Ditto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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