Monckyman Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 The band I`m in is struggling to find a decent keys player who can do more than slam a few chords out on a piano sound. So, we are seriously considering programming the keyboard parts and sticking them on a stereo file player like a Pod or minidisk etc. I realise some organic feel would be lost playing to a click but many pro bands do it all the time and manage to sound great. Thoughts and experiences? Ta. MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I've played to clicks in recording studios but not live. In my experience most bands tend to speed up ever so slightly during a song so when you have a click to me it sounds a bit mechanical and conversely appears to be slowing down. I definitely prefer real musicians! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 It's all down to how good your drummer is. Have a look at [url=http://basschat.co.uk/topic/127310-live-sequencing/]this thread[/url], and perhaps [url=http://basschat.co.uk/topic/57897-bands-using-backing-tracks-mp3]this one too[/url]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 i have a group of friends who play to a click track live and have it hooked up to a macbook which plays additional tracks and backing vox as well it works if you are willing to spend the time to work it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 In my experience, the best way to approach this for both live and studio is for only the drummer to be playing to the click. The drummer will never play perfectly in time with it, but if you and the rest of the band are keyed into the beat as the drummer interprets it, everyone will sound tight. Practice makes perfect; if you rehearse in this way it will become intuitive and the rest of the band will eventually stop dragging the drummer away from the beat so much, and he'll stop grimacing. If you follow this approach, the drummer is really the key player here; if he can apply a human touch to the beat, then everyone else will follow this, and the result will sound "organic". Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjb Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 In my experience it's just the drummer playing with the click, listening through cans. I've never, ever had a problem, but I guess it depends how good your drummer is. There's no reason why it should sound mechanical, playing in time is what you should aim for anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftyhook Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 we play to a click. well, the drummer. He has the click panned to one earphone and keys to the other. There is no click audible to the other band members. It's just like a regular drummer in the band playing with perfect timing/ Keyboards recorded onto a minidisk. I don't know how the drummer doesn't go insane........BIP-bop-bop-bop-BIP-bop-bop-bop.. The main danger? if your singer goes astray, you can't just follow them! the backing track is the king and must be followed. Sterile? Not at all. A seasoned drummer makes it look and sound natural. And ours does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1330643257' post='1561053'] [/quote] Yep, click for certain tracks in a rock band I played in until recently to cope with synth pads. Just gave it to the drummer, meant a little more complication in sound set up and sound man cueing the click at the right time and a separate mix for his cans etc. Its a definite skill for the drummer (and he has to have a decent run at the count in - disastrous if he misses it!) Worked fine. Just to add that he had it insanely loud in his ears, not sure how healthy that was. Edited March 1, 2012 by 4 Strings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Is this for an original project or a band that's making money. If it's the latter i know loads of keys players in Manchester that can properly play, but they only play for money generally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hey Jake, it`s a wedding/functions cash generator! Any numbers you have though will be welcome. To the other posters, yes only the drummer will have a click and he`ll be on in ears. He practices to a click constantly so I spose that`ll help and he`s really keen which is great. I`m a bit relieved that a few of you are already making this type of setup work in a covers/functions context. Good to know. I`ve worked for many bands who had half the show on backing so I have all the technical stuff sorted but never played with a clicked up drummer myself. I quite like the idea of having to be precise, it suits my head,and if the singer f***s it up then I`ll beat him with a golf shoe till he doesn`t. I can see it suiting more dance based stuff rather than old time rock n roll, but again that`s where I want the set to go. So, I`m going to program up a couple of fairly dense tunes in the setlist and see if it`ll fly with the present company of musos. If not, well, I`ll have lost nothing but time. On a related issue, the singist has a vague concern that a four piece won`t command as high a fee as a five piece. Thoughts? MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftyhook Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1330646168' post='1561087'] Is this for an original project or a band that's making money. If it's the latter i know loads of keys players in Manchester that can properly play, but they only play for money generally. [/quote] keyboard players, breadheads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftyhook Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [b]quote: [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]On a related issue, the singist has a vague concern that a four piece won`t command as high a fee as a five piece.[/font][/color][/b] [b][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Thoughts?[/font][/color][/b] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]not so. when it drops to a trio, you're no longer a band (don't bother using Rush as an example to get more money!)[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I feel sorry for the bands with 6 and 7 cos the money doesn't go up.[/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='endorka' timestamp='1330641778' post='1561031'] In my experience, the best way to approach this for both live and studio is for only the drummer to be playing to the click. The drummer will never play perfectly in time with it, but if you and the rest of the band are keyed into the beat as the drummer interprets it, everyone will sound tight. Practice makes perfect; if you rehearse in this way it will become intuitive and the rest of the band will eventually stop dragging the drummer away from the beat so much, and he'll stop grimacing. If you follow this approach, the drummer is really the key player here; if he can apply a human touch to the beat, then everyone else will follow this, and the result will sound "organic". Jennifer [/quote] That's an excellent post, and one I agree with. Two bands I play with use backing tracks (not clicks) with some keys, percussion and backing vocals. The drummer sets the feel, we follow, although all of us have the backing tracks in the monitors it is the drummer that is setting that timesense. It's not at all difficult, but you ARE set to an arrangement, unless you use one of the various live arrangement programs on a laptop or scene pads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 So long as your drummer can hack it you're all set. If your drummer tends to come in late from fills (like my last drummer) you're completely hosed. Fortunately I now have an excellent drummer. Dude plays marimba and is even studying tabla. Makes me look like a chump if I'm honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Tracks don't move, people do. I don't really agree that drummer only is the best way, I've played lots of gigs and sessions to click and find that leaving the responsibility to one person means that if he goes the entire band has no chance of sticking with... if you are lucky and have a drummer that can stay with, fine, if not, if he struggles you will all struggle, at least if the whole band has a click then you can be helpful if things drift. Losing the sequence sounds dire so it really is important that all the members are on the ball. I did a theatre show with a drummer who swore for 6 months that the click slowed at a certain point YEAH RIGHT!!! I have done functions with a singer that was useless at remembering form and lyrics. In both cases the fact that the drummer had the click meant that if the rest of it was led astray by conditions it resulted in one thing, AWFUL. I have done gigs with symphony orchestras where the rhythm section, the conductor and the leader has the click all fine.. one reason... top players! make the choices based upon the individual capacity of the group, test it in a stage setting, if it works fine you're away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1330650059' post='1561132'] Tracks don't move, people do. I don't really agree that drummer only is the best way, I've played lots of gigs and sessions to click and find that leaving the responsibility to one person means that if he goes the entire band has no chance of sticking with... if you are lucky and have a drummer that can stay with, fine, if not, if he struggles you will all struggle, at least if the whole band has a click then you can be helpful if things drift. Losing the sequence sounds dire so it really is important that all the members are on the ball. I have done gigs with symphony orchestras where the rhythm section, the conductor and the leader has the click all fine.. one reason... top players! make the choices based upon the individual capacity of the group, test it in a stage setting, if it works fine you're away [/quote] All this. If a few of the Musicians are using the click, it will still sound human. You are not midi file players just playing to a quantised grid line, Natural human movement & feel will see to that. Garry Edited March 2, 2012 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftyhook Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1330673893' post='1561213'] All this. If a few of the Musicians are using the click, it will still sound human. You are not midi file players just playing to a quantised grid line, Natural human movement & feel will see to that. Garry [/quote] yes, a person will always waver [u]ever so[/u] fractionally, more noticable in the snare. I remember Cubase having a 'humanise' option to it's quantise. it simply adds more feel by imitating a human drummer Edited March 2, 2012 by leftyhook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 We use backing tracks and a click all the time. Only the drummer hears it. It's all good until he gets a bit excited - falls outta time, then we need to get the supersoaker out and get him to calm down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I don't like it. I've seen bands that do this and what I don't like is sounds coming out at me which are not attributable to any action performed on an instrument on stage. The falseness of it irritates me. Just a personal opinion, you decide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystrange Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Like others have said, it depends how good your drummer is. A lot of drummers assume they can play to a click because "It's just playing in time, ain't it." and then fail miserably when they actually try. I've seen that happen a lot! As long as the songs are at the right tempo it'll sound fine. It might take you a little while to get used to playing the whole song at the same tempo though. My band don't play to a click live but we always do in the studio. We'll write, rehearse and gig a song for a while and get it tight then when we play it to a click to work out the tempo for the studio it sometimes sounds odd. I think there are certain parts of songs where most people naturally speed up a couple of bpm (usually choruses) and usually you don't notice but when you start doing the same song with a click it can make some parts seem fine whilst other seem a little bit fast or slow. When you get used to it though, it's fine. Our drummer plays in another band that do play to a click and he loves the freedom of playing with us without one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='leftyhook' timestamp='1330677623' post='1561273'] I remember Cubase having a 'humanise' option to it's quantise. it simply adds more feel by imitating a human drummer [/quote] I pressed that button once and my PC got off with the guitarist's girlfriend and was sick in my gig bag. Never again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I find that if you've been playing songs without a click track, for most of them you'll have developed subtle tempo changes which know-one notices until you start trying to play to a click. It's possible to play to a click with "feeling", but some of your songs might not suit it - they might need the subtle tempo changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1330683293' post='1561398'] I pressed that button once and my PC got off with the guitarist's girlfriend and was sick in my gig bag. Never again. [/quote] Tea all over my laptop, well done sir. On topic - I've done this with a few bands now, if you've got a good drummer who's comfortable with a click then it's easy to achieve and can sound great. Only ever used it for adding in a few samples/synths/drum loops but mixed a band the other day who had all kinds of backing vocals and bits and pieces in there - say what you will about the musical rights and wrongs of it but they sounded fantastic. All really tight musicians (and all four of them singing real live harmonies too) who could have put on a great performance without it so it wasn't covering up for anything! Techy wise, I've done it (or seen it done) with iPod/Pads, mini-disc, laptops, even a Sony PSP (drummer liked the big bright screen!) - if you're happy to run your backing as a single mono track, then you can knock up a stereo mixdown with your click panned hard one side, track panned hard the other and use a stereo to dual-mono cable. Decent monitoring for your drummer is important, the headphone amp of your playback device probably isn't enough so they'll need a dedicated headphone amp and a decent pair of in-ears to keep track of the click over the racket they'll be making! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 In a way...most people are used to paying to clicks...they are called the drummer. It may be that your drummer isn't very good at keeping time but people will move with that... So, in that sense, we are conditioned to follow time anyway. The problem is that drummers don't often have to do this so aren't that good at it. Those that are have had to put their time in. Clicks are all down to monitoring and the drummer and you have to make sure he can hear it first and foremost..and then to stick to it. Queues become very critical as you just can't miss them. The more you fly in, they more the potential for disaster, IMO. Our drummer plays to a laptop, and this is something we want to explore..but in all reality, we don't really need to as we have a full compliment so probably more hassle than it is worth for us, atm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1330683293' post='1561398'] I pressed that button once and my PC got off with the guitarist's girlfriend and was sick in my gig bag. Never again. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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