Playing to a click track.

[woodster]

[quote name='endorka' timestamp='1330641778' post='1561031']
In my experience, the best way to approach this for both live and studio is for only the drummer to be playing to the click.

The drummer will never play perfectly in time with it, but if you and the rest of the band are keyed into the beat as the drummer interprets it, everyone will sound tight.

Jennifer
[/quote]

This....

[shizznit]

I play to a click 100% in the studio, even when the drums are down. Until the drums are quantised I want to make sure I am bang on the beat. Some purists will hate doing that because of the fear of losing the 'feel' factor, but it's the method that works best for me.

I recently worked with an artist on an acoustic side project and refused to work to a click because she wanted "natural ambience", as she put it. I always get nervous when I hear that on a job. We spent 7 days recording and the producer spent 5 weeks editing the sloppy tracks that we laid down and last week I heard that the artists label freaked out about the extra money they had to spend before it could be mastered. It's so bad that it might have to been done again. Main reason why it's so crap? The drummer/percussionist (a very good one notably) came in right at the end and couldn't play to us. If we played to a click he would have stood a better chance and the entire recording would have been more successful. The writing was on the wall as soon as we started recording this way, but I wished the engineer in the studio that tracked us grew a set and said something to the artist before we kicked off. Very often in these situations whereby I am not getting a publishing or song writers cut I just let the artists do whatever the hell they like and I am not expected to have an opinion or even get asked for one.

Anyway...rant over!

I play to click live when playing in church. The guitar players have Eventide delays which they use a heck of a lot, so they can dial in the bpm's spot on. We notice that the singers drag the tempo's down during breaks in the songs if we don't use a click which really winds up the other musicians. The only bummer about that is that you need the drummer to do something to keep time to ensure they have a timing reference. We tried in ear monitors for a while whereby everyone could hear the click, but guess what was everyone's reaction? "It is distracting us!"

Although I prefer recording to a click it can work out when you don't use it. Just to bring balance, check this song out by Alice in Chains. The track is about 15-20bpm's quicker at the end from where it started, but somehow really works for this beautiful song.

[media]http://youtu.be/N_GPxe91hWE[/media]

Edited March 2, 2012 by shizznit

[mike257]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1330690951' post='1561624']
IWe notice that the singers drag the tempo's down during breaks in the songs if we don't use a click which really winds up the other musicians. The only bummer about that is that you need the drummer to do something to keep time to ensure they have a timing reference
[/quote]

That's the one thing I forgot in my last post - drummer has [i]always [/i]got to be playing something, so even in the bits where the drums drop out, he's got to give you a bit of hi-hat or something to keep in time with. Forget about that and it all goes tits up!

[SteveK]

Unless you're in a covers/tribute band and are trying to replicate the original record or in a band plays every song to a strict format, then I would say (and do), avoid clicks and pre programmed stuff at all costs...
IME clicks and the like seriously restrict your ability to actually play music.

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1330691447' post='1561639']
Unless you're in a covers/tribute band and are trying to replicate the original record or in a band plays every song to a strict format, then I would say (and do), avoid clicks and pre programmed stuff at all costs...
IME clicks and the like seriously restrict your ability to actually play music.
[/quote]
Oh come on, Steve. You need to justify comments like that.

[shizznit]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1330691447' post='1561639']
Unless you're in a covers/tribute band and are trying to replicate the original record or in a band plays every song to a strict format, then I would say (and do), avoid clicks and pre programmed stuff at all costs...
IME clicks and the like seriously restrict your ability to actually play music.
[/quote]
[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330691794' post='1561656']
Oh come on, Steve. You need to justify comments like that.
[/quote]

+1

[Doddy]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1330691447' post='1561639']
IME clicks and the like seriously restrict your ability to actually play music.
[/quote]

It only restricts your ability if you let it.
I've done quite a bit of work with a click,ranging from just the Drummer hearing it to the whole
band having it and it never hindered anyone's ability to play music.
The whole 'click restricts your feel' argument is just like the 'you can't groove while reading'
debate.....bullshit usually banded about by players who can't do it. (I'm not saying you can't,
....more of an 'in general' statement)

Edited March 2, 2012 by Doddy

[cheddatom]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1330691189' post='1561631']
That's the one thing I forgot in my last post - drummer has [i]always [/i]got to be playing something, so even in the bits where the drums drop out, he's got to give you a bit of hi-hat or something to keep in time with. Forget about that and it all goes tits up!
[/quote]

I do it with my band and we're tight. I only start pedalling the hats if there's a very long section with no beat, or if the guitarist gets a little too excited, which is almost never.

[Bilbo]

Jazzers almost never use clicks.

[mike257]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1330694354' post='1561714']
I do it with my band and we're tight. I only start pedalling the hats if there's a very long section with no beat, or if the guitarist gets a little too excited, which is almost never.
[/quote]

That's what I mean - long sections with no drums need something from the drummer to keep you in with the click!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1330697109' post='1561785']
That's what I mean - long sections with no drums need something from the drummer to keep you in with the click!
[/quote]

Well the way you emphasised the word "always" made me think you thought the drummer had to play in every part with no beat.

For example, we have a song with such a section which is 26 clicks long. We'll regularly play this without any input from me, but very occasionally i'll have to start pedalling hats half way through.

[bartelby]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1330686573' post='1561493']
I find that if you've been playing songs without a click track, for most of them you'll have developed subtle tempo changes which know-one notices until you start trying to play to a click. It's possible to play to a click with "feeling", but some of your songs might not suit it - they might need the subtle tempo changes.
[/quote]

Yep. I discovered that when my band's drummer quit and I started programming drum machines, using rehearsal recordings. Some of the songs drifted my 5- 10 bpm from verse to chorus.
You couldn't really tell listening to it. but the idea of sorting click tracks for all the songs makes me break out in a cold sweat...

[lowdown]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1330691447' post='1561639']
IME clicks and the like seriously restrict your ability to actually play music.
[/quote]

Not your finest Jazz solo Steve....



Garry

[SteveK]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330691794' post='1561656']
Oh come on, Steve. You need to justify comments like that.
[/quote]
[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1330692479' post='1561674']
It only restricts your ability if you let it.
I've done quite a bit of work with a click,ranging from just the Drummer hearing it to the whole
band having it and it never hindered anyone's ability to play music.
The whole 'click restricts your feel' argument is just like the 'you can't groove while reading'
debate.....bullshit usually banded about by players who can't do it. (I'm not saying you can't,
....more of an 'in general' statement)
[/quote]
How does a machine respond if the band wants to move up a gear tempo-wise, or pull it back?
How does a band respond if the instrumental section was really cooking and over runs by eight bars and there are some fancy pre programmed horns coming up at bar 56?
Now can you see how it might be more than a little restrictive?
[quote]
bullshit usually banded about by players who can't do it. (I'm not saying you can't,
....more of an 'in general' statement)[/quote]

I've done it many times over the years, on stage and in the studio...believe me, I can [i]do it[/i]

I'll add and reiterate that this is [i]my[/i] experience. Thankfully I play with like minded musicians...and the punters dig it...so, all is well.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bartelby' timestamp='1330698175' post='1561808']
Yep. I discovered that when my band's drummer quit and I started programming drum machines, using rehearsal recordings. Some of the songs drifted my 5- 10 bpm from verse to chorus.
You couldn't really tell listening to it. but the idea of sorting click tracks for all the songs makes me break out in a cold sweat...
[/quote]

yeh I just use it for songs which suit the same tempo all the way through. I would never try and program tempo changes, deffinitely not live!!

[SteveK]

Ok, just seen that the OP is in a [i]'wedding/functions cash generator!' band[/i]. He'll probably be playing covers to a strict format... so my 'thoughts and experiences' will be mostly irrelevant to him.

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1330701129' post='1561869']
How does a machine respond if the band wants to move up a gear tempo-wise, or pull it back?
How does a band respond if the instrumental section was really cooking and over runs by eight bars and there are some fancy pre programmed horns coming up at bar 56?
Now can you see how it might be more than a little restrictive?
[/quote]

Music is FULL of restrictions Steve. You play in a band that's wants to improvise live, that's fine. I play in some bands that have tight arrangements with effectively a 10 piece band on backing tracks, and 3 - 7 musicians on stage. Sometimes the writer's vision is just too expensive and impractical to make real, so some compromises are necessary. Anyway, in one of them the keys player uses Ableton Live with a live arranger pad so if a section is really cooking we can extend it, and have done numerous times.

Edited March 2, 2012 by silddx

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1330648567' post='1561113']
Hey Jake, it`s a wedding/functions cash generator!
Any numbers you have though will be welcome.
[/quote]

I'll pass some numbers on this weekend, if i forget, remind me


Best solution i've worked with for bands that like to change form of the songs etc is for your drummer to use a Roland SPD-s/x.
If your drummer knows how to use it, you can bring in loops/samples/horn parts from the hit of a pad.
This is the set up i use in my band at the moment.

I've also toured for almost 4 years doing the mono route, L channel click, R channel sampling.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1330711554' post='1562104']
I'll pass some numbers on this weekend, if i forget, remind me


Best solution i've worked with for bands that like to change form of the songs etc is for your drummer to use a Roland SPD-s/x.
If your drummer knows how to use it, you can bring in loops/samples/horn parts from the hit of a pad.
This is the set up i use in my band at the moment.

I've also toured for almost 4 years doing the mono route, L channel click, R channel sampling.
[/quote]

We use that too in a couple of bands, very very useful.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1330682494' post='1561371']
I don't like it. I've seen bands that do this and what I don't like is sounds coming out at me which are not attributable to any action performed on an instrument on stage. The falseness of it irritates me.

Just a personal opinion, you decide
[/quote]

We are probably in a minority, but I agree with you

[SteveK]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330710646' post='1562086']
Music is FULL of restrictions Steve.
[/quote]Not too sure what you mean there.
I don't have too much problem with odd brass, voices, effects etc samples being used as and when needed, but to play an entire song to a click in order to do it is (IMV) a restriction too far.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330710646' post='1562086']
I play in some bands that have tight arrangements with effectively a 10 piece band on backing tracks, and 3 - 7 musicians on stage.
[/quote]And for that reason, with respect, this would be a band that I would have no interest in.


[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330710646' post='1562086']
Sometimes the writer's vision is just too expensive and impractical to make real, so some compromises are necessary.
[/quote]Again, something that wouldn't interest me.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330710646' post='1562086']
Anyway, in one of them the keys player uses Ableton Live with a live arranger pad so if a section is really cooking we can extend it, and have done numerous times.
[/quote]I don't know how that works, but if it means bringing stuff in at the touch of a button without enduring a click, then that doesn't sound restrictive at all.

At the end of the day it's horses for courses. I would probably be a little more vociferous if it was regarding using a click just to play in time.

[endorka]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1330650059' post='1561132']
Tracks don't move, people do. I don't really agree that drummer only is the best way, I've played lots of gigs and sessions to click and find that leaving the responsibility to one person means that if he goes the entire band has no chance of sticking with... if you are lucky and have a drummer that can stay with, fine, if not, if he struggles you will all struggle, at least if the whole band has a click then you can be helpful if things drift.
[/quote]

It's interesting that you find things this way. The reason I stopped monitoring the click when recording was that drummers tend not to be 100% on the beat, and when they get noticeably off - it doesn't take much - I then have two out of sync beats in my cans, and I have to make the decision about which one to go with.

If I know that the drums will be quantised at a later date, then the click is the one. If the drums won't be quantised later, then I should go with the drummer. But what if you don't know in advance? In a recent session it was pointed out to me that if they quantise the drums at a later date, they can also quantise the bass in the same way, so I might as well take the click out and play with the drums.

Jennifer

[gilmour]

Loads of interesting thoughts in this thread. I don't want to repeat all of those.

What I did want to add is that playing to a click and playing to a backing track aren't necessarily the same thing. Granted a lot of the time they are, however not always.

One of my projects runs Ableton and with that we trigger verse/chorus/bridge loops via MIDI controllers (we still get a click track) however it does give use the space to go around a chorus an extra time, or cover a few bars if the singer comes in at the wrong point etc. I think it also makes sense for the audience as they can see that someone is doing something to make the noise coming out of the speakers.

[Monckyman]

Thanks for the posts all, this is a contentious topic to some an it wasn`t my intention to discuss the integrity of playing an ostensibly live show along to a machine or recording.
Personally, I think music has progressed well past simple human interaction and far far into the digital realm.
But that`s another argument.
All I care about here, is the technical restrictions and aspects of practicality.
I`m not writing an opus, merely covering some Coldplay tunes.
Ta.

[BigRedX]

My feeling on the subject of using programmed backings and playing to click tracks were all cover in my posts in the threads I linked to back on page one of this thread.

However I would add that there is music that benefits from strict tempo and set arrangements and music that doesn't - good musicians will know when each is applicable. My feeling regarding the OPs situation is that his band would be far better off with a decent keyboard player or to work out alternative arrangements for the songs in question (just because the original has extra parts doesn't make then mandatory) rather than messing around with backing tracks.