Getting a PA soon... Stumped!!

[bassist_lewis]

hello there

My covers band has recently got an agent who has given us 4 gigs in about as many days (woohoo!) but we're all still pretty skint and inexperienced in the big bad world of functions (drummer and me have done about 100 between us but those have always 'turn up, play, go home' affairs). So on to my question, we really need a PA of our own and I want to know what exactly do we need, what can we get away without for the time being (our budget is £1000 but ideally less).

I've looked into a few bundles on DV247 for ideas, do we desperately need a huge sub-woofer right now? or will two decent tops do until we can afford something better? Can we get away with one monitor (or none?!)
help!!

Lewis

PS I know the ideal would be two tops, two subs, 4 monitors, big digital mixer, a bazillion drum mics and DIs with more buttons and switches than the Deathstar etc but we're currently on a shoestring budget

Edited March 6, 2012 by bassist_lewis

[warwickhunt]

How big are the venues, what does your band consist of, do you have a loud drummer/guitarist/saxophonist/etc? A bit more background info will help give a better idea of your needs but tbh it'd be false economy buying a (relatively) cheap NEW package rather than buying a decent used set of gear that you can add to.

making a sweeping generalisation prior to your answers; assuming you are playing large pubs/small club size venues, you aren't a 6 - 10 piece band with horns etc and you don't have any band members who insist on playing at stupid volumes, you can 'probably' get away with initially buying a decent set of tops (2nd hand) and you can do without bass bin(s) and likely as not no monitor (sensible on stage volumes and strategic positioning of your FOH speakers will dictate).

If you can even budget for one bass bin I'd stop at that (you can end up with phase cancellation if your bins aren't sufficiently far apart, unless you stack them on top of each other... honest), two bins are an extravagance in most pub/small club gigs.

You have factored in the fact that you'll need power amp (or two if you use a bass bin) if not going active, a mixing desk, probably a simple reverb, appropriate leads and stands and tbh if they are reasonable gigs you really could do with a simple lighting set-up... on reflection your £1000 budget won't go far for new gear!

You could look at a very simple mixer amp and tops set-up but you'll honestly be looking at upgrading stuff in no time if you are getting work that regular from an agent.

[crez5150]

My advise to you would be to find your local PA hire company and hire some kit for the first few gigs. Won't cost a lot and it will give a good insight into what kit you will eventually buy.

I see you are in Edinburgh. Have a chat with the guys at The Warehouse. I've dealt with them in the past and they are very knowledgable and have a hire department.
Jay

Edited March 6, 2012 by crez5150

[bassist_lewis]

as far as the band is concerned we're all conscientious players so no volume wars going on. we're a 4 piece (drums, bass, 2 guitars and 2 vocals). In terms of venues I reckon it'll be the standard mix of marquees, church halls, pubs and drawing rooms of stately homes.
Our agent has said they can help us source a decent second-hand PA so will definately speak to them at some point. Upgrading is definately the intention.
If you get active speakers can you then plug in a mixing desk (sorry if this is a silly question, not a techy guy )?

[TRBboy]

[quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1331065933' post='1567197']
as far as the band is concerned we're all conscientious players so no volume wars going on. we're a 4 piece (drums, bass, 2 guitars and 2 vocals). In terms of venues I reckon it'll be the standard mix of marquees, church halls, pubs and drawing rooms of stately homes.
Our agent has said they can help us source a decent second-hand PA so will definately speak to them at some point. Upgrading is definately the intention.
If you get active speakers can you then plug in a mixing desk (sorry if this is a silly question, not a techy guy )?
[/quote]

If you're playing those sort of size venues and you're not mega loud, I would suggest you could get away with a PA just for the vocals? If so, I would go for a decent pair of mid-tops and a mixer & power amp/powered mixer, and a pair of monitors. You can always shove a mic in the bass drum if needs be.

If you've got powered speakers, you just need a passive (unpowered) mixer.

[Lozz196]

As the others have said, depending on size of venues, and the size of your amps of course, with £1000 you`ll be able to get plenty enough volume for a vocals pa - especially if going 2nd hand.

[Truckstop]

Don't forget to get mic stands and leads!!!!

Also, with that sort of money you could probably afford to get yourself a decent bass drum mic. Being able to control the volume and frequencies of the bass drum is mega handy!

Get some tops and a mixer/amp for £700 and spend the rest on accessories and mics.

Truckstop

[leftybassman392]

I'd have to agree with the above about getting a vocal P.A. to start with (in which case you won't need subs just yet anyway). You can always expand as the need arises.

Simplest solution might be to get a powered mixer and some decent passive speakers, but that may limit you later on when (as is likely) you need to expand the system.

Best solution is to get powered speakers that will simply plug into the main outs of your mixer (which also makes your life a bit easier when assembling/striking the P.A. at gigs). Downside is that if they're any good then they'll be expensive to buy new - but you might want to keep an eye out for some good SH Mackies (e.g. SRM450). Good basic mixers are relatively cheap these days, and you can often get basic FX such as reverb built in. Don't be afraid to get more channels than you think you'll need.

As has been said, don't forget to budget for mics (£50 - £60 per unit should be enough at this stage), stands and leads.

[jacko]

We've been playing around most of the decent pub venues in central scotland for 7 years and we've never seen a need to go for more than a pair of powered wharfdale 12" units on stands for FoH. we initially started off with these and a 12 channel behringer mixer but over the years have gradually added monitors and a second 8 channel mixer for the odd occasion we need to mic the drums*. We usually only put 4 vocal mics and the 2 guitars through the PA. More established pubs like whistlebinkies, behind the wall and finnegan's wake have their own PA although with some it's usefull to take your own monitors and mics. We also use our own PA for weddings and never have a problem filling decent sized halls with enough music to suit even the fussiest bride. Remember also, the more kit you have, the more you have to transport/setup and break down after a long night. Keep it simple.

* we only mic the full drum kit and bass if we're using the venue's speakers - our sound guy prefers to use our desks rather than the house one as he's familiar with how it works.

[woodyratm]

Agree with buying 2nd hand. I did that when we had our own practice space. Cost me 400 quid I think?

[mike257]

Another vote for second hand here. If you're looking at a serious move into function work, hopefully you'll be swiftly moving up to weddings/corporate stuff and I'd aim to get something upgradeable. For me, that means avoiding powered speakers or mixers and going for separate mixer/amps/cabs.

That way, you can put cash aside every few gigs and upgrade a piece at a time whilst retaining connectivity and compatibility with the other parts of your system. I can't help but see powered speakers as dead money when it comes to upgrading as you're effectively having to replace two components in one if you need something bigger.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1331107798' post='1567590']
I can't help but see powered speakers as dead money when it comes to upgrading as you're effectively having to replace two components in one if you need something bigger.
[/quote]

Depends what you get. Good quality gear will have plenty of power, amps optimised to the drivers, excellent sound quality, portability, modular construction (making for an easy upgrade route), simplicity of operation, ....... the list goes on. You can get a pair of SRM450's (400w rms per side) for around £600 - £650 s/h. How is that dead money?

[ben604]

I'd only buy active. We just bought a pair of these [url="http://www.hwaudio.co.uk/product/52186.aspx"]FBTs[/url] and you'd be hard pushed to find an amp/cabs combo as light and powerful as these. One XLR in to each and I'm set up too. Easy peasy!

[JTUK]

Depends how discerning your audience or client base is...and that is probably determined by the fees you can charge.

FWIW..P.A is the single most important piece of kit IMV..if you accept vocals are the most important focal point of a band, and this is where so many bands
don't pay enough attention.
Assuming that the vocals itself are sorted, then you need very good reproduction, so discount PV and the like. This is cheap pub clobber and hardwearing
enough but the quality isn't there to take on good function work.,
IMO, the minimum standard cabs you should be looking at are EV and there e-bay is your friend. If you are really lucky you might track down some Martin Audio
ICT300's but you will also need a controller...plus desk and power amps.
You can see that £1000 is a very tight budget but buy well once and you'll not have to do it again for quite a while.
Subs come later...as I doubt you have the collective experience to make the most of them, tbh.

If money is really tight and you aren't ready for decent gear, then hire is a good option, but then that also depends on what you are hiring.
Maybe hire in the engr for a few loss-leading gigs, so you see what the standard requirement is and start the steep learning curve.

and then you'll need lights.

Sorry to sound a bit down on this but it doesn't sound like you are ready for this as yet.

[pietruszka]

I'm in the same position! Bough I'm looking at a pair of RCF art 310-a's with a fb technologies 12"sub. All from active and from a behringer x2442 USB desk. Thing is, this all has to fit into a nissan micra along with all my bass gear, which involves a 410!




Dan

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1331118306' post='1567814']
I'm in the same position! Bough I'm looking at a pair of RCF art 310-a's with a fb technologies 12"sub. All from active and from a behringer x2442 USB desk. Thing is, this all has to fit into a nissan micra along with all my bass gear, which involves a 410!




Dan
[/quote]

Sounds about right. I assume you have bass and/or kit through the P.A. - otherwise there's no need for the sub at this stage (and at small venues you may not need it anyway of course). In time you may want to invest in a cable snake so you can put it elsewhere in the venue (which also means investing in a sound tech of course...), but apart from that it sounds fine. As has been said before though, don't forget to allow a bit for mics, stands and cables. I'm not completely up on latest gear but Shure, Sennheiser, AKG and the like will sell you perfectly good stage mics for around £60 or so (although spending a bit more will do no harm) - upgrade later when the work load allows it.

Have you thought about any form of onstage monitoring?

[LiamPodmore]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1331107798' post='1567590']
Another vote for second hand here. If you're looking at a serious move into function work, hopefully you'll be swiftly moving up to weddings/corporate stuff and I'd aim to I can't help but see powered speakers as dead money when it comes to upgrading as you're effectively having to replace two components in one if you need something bigger.
[/quote]

My theory about powered speakers is when they get retired from FOH use, throw them on the floor and use them as Monitors, therefore you're not wasting the money, and have some (More?) monitors too.


As for the OP, not sure on the PA (We use 2 1x12's and 2 1x15's for vocals only with a Behringer powered mixer) but for cheapish mics i reccomend EV Cobalt C09's, we use them and they're pretty robust and have a very similar sound to the bog standard SM58 to my ears.

Liam

Edited March 7, 2012 by LiamPodmore

[bassfunk]

We hire in PA for Weddings etc as it's less hassle, we get lights and a sound engineer. Plus me and the drummer ride in the van with the PA and sound guy as we're already paying their petrol.

We all live in small flats/houses so we have nowhere to store anything too big -plus we'd have to get a van.

For pubs,clubs and smaller functions we use one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HK-AUDIO-SOUNDHOUSE-ONE-600-WATTS-RMS-PA-SYSTEM-SPEAKERS-/150772662240?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item231ac03fe0

It's nice and loud and fit's in the back of my astra with my bass gear! I picked one up 2nd hand for about £400.

You haven't mentioned lights, if you're playing venues without lights you will probably need at least a basic sound to light system.

[pietruszka]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1331125038' post='1568002']


Sounds about right. I assume you have bass and/or kit through the P.A. - otherwise there's no need for the sub at this stage (and at small venues you may not need it anyway of course). In time you may want to invest in a cable snake so you can put it elsewhere in the venue (which also means investing in a sound tech of course...), but apart from that it sounds fine. As has been said before though, don't forget to allow a bit for mics, stands and cables. I'm not completely up on latest gear but Shure, Sennheiser, AKG and the like will sell you perfectly good stage mics for around £60 or so (although spending a bit more will do no harm) - upgrade later when the work load allows it.

Have you thought about any form of onstage monitoring?
[/quote]
We will have a monitor, personally I think the singer should have the pa! As for a sub, a band sounds better being able to put some kick and bass through the sub. It makes everything sound better and fuller. Also we're with a good agency that only does weddings and corporate events so it has to sound good!
Fortunately, Ive been recorded by YFriday's keys player and he is a huge PA nut and has helped me massively.


Dan

[dmccombe7]

Please note I'm no PA expert but simply have worked with a few.

Check out hiring a PA first and get a feel for what goes on with them. Don't dive in and buy first thing you see.

PA systems can be a huge field but there are some shortcuts to keep costs down.
ie drums - mic on bass and snare with an overhead mic to catch all kit. This is what the drummer himself will hear so mic will / should pick up same. If you point snare mic at an angle you will also pick up on the hi-hats if need be.
Make sure you use a proper bass drum mic though.
Depending on cabs you buy you could add bass and gtr through spare channels to fill out your front end sound.

You will also need to look at amp mics or DI boxes if your amps don't have XLR balanced outs or you feel you want your bass cab reproduced Front of House. Personally I've either DI'd from amp or straight into main desk without bass amp at all.

PA mixer amps will have circa 6-12 channels and are probably more portable. These can at a later stage be slave amped and another set of speakers added to the slave and so you expand. These are pretty basic PA systems and some or most will have built in effects of some kind. Probably a good bet for a first buyer as such.
You do also get powered desks which again you simply add additional power amps and cabs as required.
You could then look
Moving on you would then look at "proper" mixing desks - more expensive but more options and practicality than mixer amp.
Once you have the desk you can add the x-overs and compression if required and then your power amps. These can be added in stages. If you can get full range cabs which these days a good quality 12" or 15" cab with horns would probably suffice. Once money comes in from gigs you add another amp and cabs and keep building on it. I won't go into x-overs and compression at this stage as it gets overly complicated and again I'm no expert in their operation either. I simply know they are used.
Some guys will add graphic EQ to balance overall tone for each venue rather than seperate instrument tonal changes.
Setting up a PA in a large venue when empty will offer a far different sound to what is required when venue is full and people standing in front of your cabs.

And as pointed out earlier there is the lighting. They make a lot of difference to a show - even a few basic colour like LED type will have sound activated changes which you simply switch on and let them do the work.
You can do the full lighting rig as i am currently putting together to include PAR's, projectors, lasers and fog machine for effect all controlled from DMX lighting desk FOH. (note this is my pet hobby within the band and therefore enjoy setting them up and doing the programming etc)

Hope that helps without confusing the issue

Cheers
Dave

Edited March 8, 2012 by dmccombe7