Headphone alternative to standalone monitors?

[Jellyfish]

I've been looking at all available options recently as to what I can hook up to my Focusrite Saffire 6 USB and of course there are a lot of monitors out there. But i've also been looking at spending around £100 on a decent pair of professional headphones and am wondering if that's really an acceptable alternative to monitors. I'm hoping someone has experience of trying out both and can guide me!

[paul_5]

Ah, the old headphone debate.

we thrashed this one about a little while ago - the link's here:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/161479-new-to-the-recording-lark-what-headphones-would-you-recommend/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/161479-new-to-the-recording-lark-what-headphones-would-you-recommend/[/url]

Hope this helps, Paul

[Jellyfish]

Helps a ton, thank you so much. I admit, I was lazy (well not really, but forgetful!) and didn't search beforehand.

[paul_5]

De nada, glad to be of service.

[charic]

I'm unsure as to what ohmage ones to go for but these are bloody fantastic for mixing on!

[url="http://www.dv247.com/headphones/beyerdynamic-dt-100-studio-headphones-grey-16-ohm--5013"]http://www.dv247.com/headphones/beyerdynamic-dt-100-studio-headphones-grey-16-ohm--5013[/url]

[paul_5]

Oooh, mixing on DT100s? I reckon if you try the DT150s you'll notice a BIG difference. DT100s are found in loads of studios up and down the country because they're great for recording vocals due to practically no overspill back into the mic, but personally I don't think they're detailed enough for mixing.

That said, if they work for you, then more power to your elbow

As you were.

[charic]

It might have been the 150's I'm unsure! I just remembered dt 1 something and they were white

[ShergoldSnickers]

Tempting as it may be to go with the big names, Beyer, Sennheiser, AKG etc, there is a company knocking around that specialises in headphones* named Grado. Not a household name, but the sound quality is staggering for the money. They range from £90 to £1700 ( ). The SR60i are £90, personally I'd go for the SR80i at £110 or the SR125i at around £150.

*They also make audiophile standard pickup cartridges for turntables.

[charic]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' timestamp='1331122615' post='1567939']
Tempting as it may be to go with the big names, Beyer, Sennheiser, AKG etc, there is a company knocking around that specialises in headphones* named Grado. Not a household name, but the sound quality is staggering for the money. They range from £90 to £1700 ( ). The SR60i are £90, personally I'd go for the SR80i at £110 or the SR125i at around £150.

*They also make audiophile standard pickup cartridges for turntables.
[/quote]

I always gathered that Grado were the "hifi" equivalent in headphones. Lovely sounding but not really great for mixing (PS. Grado is a "big name")

What you really need is these

[url="http://www.firebox.com/product/2938/Ultrasone-Zebrano-Edition-10-Headphones"]http://www.firebox.com/product/2938/Ultrasone-Zebrano-Edition-10-Headphones[/url]

[paul_5]

Erm, for that much money I could have an extra pair of ears grafted onto my head.

[charic]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1331123129' post='1567957']
Erm, for that much money I could have an extra pair of ears grafted onto my head.
[/quote]

They wouldn't actually do anything though and you'd look a little bit silly

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1331123033' post='1567951']
I always gathered that Grado were the "hifi" equivalent in headphones. Lovely sounding but not really great for mixing (PS. Grado is a "big name")
[/quote]

They are indeed sold as 'hi-fi' phones. This does not disqualify them from use for mixing. They tend to be neutral, detailed and comfortable to wear which is a good combination really.

Incidentally I've used various hi-fi speakers for mixing in the past - and still do, in conjunction with Grado SR125 phones. They do the job very well..... and I still contend they are not a big household name.

Hi-Fi can mean artificially enhanced - a lot of speakers and headphones are like that. By using your ears though you can sometimes come across products that do the job better than the 'pro' gear. Well I think so anyway.

[Alex Spencer]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' timestamp='1331126297' post='1568037']
They are indeed sold as 'hi-fi' phones. This does not disqualify them from use for mixing.
[/quote]

Surely you're looking for headphones that will represent the sound well, rather than give a 'better' sound?

Personally I'd go for Beyer DT770's. I use them a lot for mixing and general audio work when I can't get to a decent pair of monitors. Pretty popular headphones, BBC use them a lot too.

[crez5150]

[quote name='Alex Spencer' timestamp='1331222335' post='1569761']
Surely you're looking for headphones that will represent the sound well, rather than give a 'better' sound?

Personally I'd go for Beyer DT770's. I use them a lot for mixing and general audio work when I can't get to a decent pair of monitors. Pretty popular headphones, BBC use them a lot too.
[/quote]

+1 for the DT 770's, outstanding for the money

[51m0n]

Top of the line 'hi-fi' speakers (ie B&W) are used as monitors in the [url="http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Discover/Discover/About_Bowers_&_Wilkins/Abbey-Road.html"]very best of studios[/url], so using top of the range headphones (ie Grado) for headphone monitoring isnt a problem IMO.

However, do do yourself a favour and get a copy of [url="http://112db.com/redline/monitor/"]this vst[/url] or an equivalent that mimics the blending of right channel(speaker) to left ear and vice versa that you get in a speaker monitoring situation. It really helps get your panning right and gives you a much better idea as to how your mix will translate onto speakers generally.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Alex Spencer' timestamp='1331222335' post='1569761']
Surely you're looking for headphones that will represent the sound well, rather than give a 'better' sound?

Personally I'd go for Beyer DT770's. I use them a lot for mixing and general audio work when I can't get to a decent pair of monitors. Pretty popular headphones, BBC use them a lot too.
[/quote]

By 'better' I mean more accurate (as I hear it). I don't hold with the idea that we should monitor on something that represents an average consumer set-up or something that may be ruler flat but manages to stifle detail that should be there. This is a personal opinion that works for me, it won't work for others. All speakers are a huge compromise - and headphones to a lesser extent.

After protracted listening to JBLs, Tannoys etc a number of years ago when helping to set up a studio, we actually settled on some hifi speakers for monitoring. Strangely enough the bloke that made them - a former BBC engineer - said we weren't the only ones using them for that purpose. They didn't reach the same SPL figures the others could, but they were definitely more revealing and transparent. Things have moved on since then, but if presented with the same problem - of finding some studio monitors - I'd find a good audio dealer and listen to the likes of B&W, Linn and Naim speakers, as well as looking at dedicated studio monitors. After what I heard the first time, I'd be daft not to. Challenging the norm is a duty - you don't know what you'll find.

On the bonus side of using hifi speakers for monitoring, I still have my hearing as the monitoring SPL was kept to reasonable levels - a good idea in any case. If you have to blast it out before it sounds impressive, there is something wrong.

I nearly put the B&W link in myself, but 51m0n got there first. I've heard a pair of these B&Ws, and others way down the range. There is a family resemblance all the way down, even to the 'budget' £500 CM1.

[Alex Spencer]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' timestamp='1331232966' post='1570063']
By 'better' I mean more accurate (as I hear it). I don't hold with the idea that we should monitor on something that represents an average consumer set-up or something that may be ruler flat but manages to stifle detail that should be there. This is a personal opinion that works for me, it won't work for others. All speakers are a huge compromise - and headphones to a lesser extent.

After protracted listening to JBLs, Tannoys etc a number of years ago when helping to set up a studio, we actually settled on some hifi speakers for monitoring. Strangely enough the bloke that made them - a former BBC engineer - said we weren't the only ones using them for that purpose. They didn't reach the same SPL figures the others could, but they were definitely more revealing and transparent. Things have moved on since then, but if presented with the same problem - of finding some studio monitors - I'd find a good audio dealer and listen to the likes of B&W, Linn and Naim speakers, as well as looking at dedicated studio monitors. After what I heard the first time, I'd be daft not to. Challenging the norm is a duty - you don't know what you'll find.

On the bonus side of using hifi speakers for monitoring, I still have my hearing as the monitoring SPL was kept to reasonable levels - a good idea in any case. If you have to blast it out before it sounds impressive, there is something wrong.

I nearly put the B&W link in myself, but 51m0n got there first. I've heard a pair of these B&Ws, and others way down the range. There is a family resemblance all the way down, even to the 'budget' £500 CM1.
[/quote]

How can they be more accurate if they take on the characteristic of that speaker? Hifi speakers are constructed and designed to give a certain sound, and they all sound different. The point of studio monitors is to try and give a more transparent, flatter and clearer sound. If they are flat, you can hear all the problems with the mix that will then be emphasised by the hifi speakers. I wouldn't go for JBLs or Tanoys for a studio anyways. Tanoys don't represent the sound well and JBL are far better at making front of house speakers than studio speakers. The SPL should always be at 83db anyway. The fletcher/Munsun graph shows that that frequency is when the sound is at its flattest, once again to show up the problems.

It's a silly argument really. If you know your speakers well, and it works for you then go for it! My point really is that they are a specifically designed tool for a specific job. Using hifi speakers is like using a flat head screw driver for a phillips head screw. It'll work, but that's not what is was designed for.

[51m0n]

You had better go and tell Abbey Road then, silly them, what would they know

Its as much about quality of components and testing when you get into that league. ALLL speakers are innaccurate. 'Monitors' are just supposedly flatter. You get up to the top of the B&W range and they will give as revealing an insight as any monitor out there.

Personally I'd love to have a set of [url="http://www.pmc-speakers.com/products/professional/active/bb5-a"]PMC BB5-a[/url]'s but I'd need to win the lottery I'm afraid....

Edited March 9, 2012 by 51m0n

[charic]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1331285035' post='1570665']
You had better go and tell Abbey Road then, silly them, what would they know
[/quote]

Aren't they closing or closed?

[51m0n]

Must be down to the monitors!

[charic]

Ofcourse!

We should let them know

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1331285035' post='1570665']
You had better go and tell Abbey Road then, silly them, what would they know

Its as much about quality of components and testing when you get into that league. ALLL speakers are innaccurate. 'Monitors' are just supposedly flatter. You get up to the top of the B&W range and they will give as revealing an insight as any monitor out there.

Personally I'd love to have a set of [url="http://www.pmc-speakers.com/products/professional/active/bb5-a"]PMC BB5-a[/url]'s but I'd need to win the lottery I'm afraid....
[/quote]

Indeed. I'd heard that hifi speakers were unsuitable. I challenged that dogma, and after protracted listening and arranging numerous time consuming demos in situ over a period of weeks found that with careful choice you could find something better than the studio monitors available, and at a similar or lower price. By better I mean truer to the original intention. Besides which the so called monitors all sounded completely different, so we were immediately in subjective territory anyway. I freely admit this was a while ago, and studio monitors have improved. So have audiophile speakers.

Same thing with mics. And headphones. And cars. and breakfast cereal, and beer. Challenge the accepted dogma and be prepared to come away surprised. Besides it's just fun doing the research and being a nerd for a while.

[51m0n]

Exactly.

If all monitors are so flat, they must all sound identical, and their output must be measurably identical.

This is not even close to the case IME.

The best of the best of HiFi tend toward flatness so as not to flatter any area more than any other (after all you cant tell what will be played back on them) so as to sound equally good with whatever you put through them.

A lot of cheap hifi sounds very flawed in some area or other of the frequency spectrum. But cheap monitors suffer by equal margins IME.....

[Alex Spencer]

Each to their own! In the end it's what your ears are telling you, not a frequency graph. If you know your monitors/speakers and room well enough then you can mix almost anywhere on anything (within reason!)

[urb]

Back on topic.... +1 for the Beyer DT770 Pros (80ohm ones) - I love them and do a lot of stuff on them at the moment and they are not only comfortable as hell but sound very transparent - and yes I've done a few bits of work with BBC types and on radio and the Beyers crop up everywhere - for £120 they are a good investment IMO.

Hope that helps

M