*what do you look for in an (onboard) preamp?

[LukeFRC]

Hello everyone.
For questions here. Having just swapped out the preamp on my warwick and being unsure what I think of the new one, it sounds better with it off!

So I was wondering what is it that ppl look for in a preamp?
What do you use it to do to your sound?

What have you found that's suited you to a tee (and why) and what hasn't cut the mustard (and why)

Obviously different basses are different, and I know that, a preamp is hardly ever seen on a P bass but is an integral part of say the stingray sound, so I don't want to get into active vs passive.....




I'll stick my thoughts up in a bit once a few other folk have given their 2p

[paul_5]

sweepable mid frequency to cut or boost is a brilliant feature, also a 'get out of jail' switch, should your battery fail...

[Ou7shined]

The thing that separates most active circuits from passive is their ability to add something to the tone - passive controls (with a very few exceptions) can only take away. Active circuits add and remove at predefined frequencies.
When selecting your active circuit you want to choose the one which boosts (or subtracts) the frequencies you want to enhance.
The perfect circuit would offer a sweepable selection over all frequencies.

[ikay]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1331146208' post='1568518']
The perfect circuit would offer a sweepable selection over all frequencies.
[/quote]

+1 the Noll TCM-3P offers sweepable bass, mid and treble (http://www.noll-electronic.de/sites_d/tcm_3p_spezifik.html). Haven't got one myself but I keep thinking about it.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1331146208' post='1568518']
The thing that separates most active circuits from passive is their ability to add something to the tone - passive controls (with a very few exceptions) can only take away. Active circuits add and remove at predefined frequencies.
When selecting your active circuit you want to choose the one which boosts (or subtracts) the frequencies you want to enhance.
The perfect circuit would offer a sweepable selection over all frequencies.
[/quote]

I've only really used 2 band, to be honest I can't see much point of a mid band unless it is tuneable.
I quite like the look of the East SP2, with (internally settable) bass and treble frequancies.

Personally I've gone from the Warwick preamp, with a very low high point and low high point to a glockenklang 2 band- which has an abserdly high high point and a pretty well chosen low point.

But I'm not entirely happy with it, the whole thing sounds better passive. So at some point I will swap it out (anyone want a glock give me a shout) in my bass, and with my rig it feels like the treble control is pretty useful, though `i can understand why they put it up there, as for other players (in other basses) it would work.
I guess also having started my music running PA desks rather than an instument I'm pretty happy having full control over an EQ to find the right sound.
Tempeted by a ACG filter based thingy, or maybe just another 2 band like the East SP2

[BigRedX]

IMO an onboard pre-amp should do at least one of the following:

1. Something that can't be replicated by the controls on your amp.
2. Individual tonal changes to each pick up.
3. Smooth blend between pick ups without any volume drop in the centre position.

[ikay]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1331160264' post='1568837']
IMO an onboard pre-amp should do at least one of the following:

1. Something that can't be replicated by the controls on your amp.
2. Individual tonal changes to each pick up.
3. Smooth blend between pick ups without any volume drop in the centre position.
[/quote]

You don't happen to be on commission for selling the ACG EQ01 do you

[chris_b]

For me to like a bass it has to sound good flat. Then it'll sound better if I add or subtract a little here and there. Whether that comes from the preamp, pickups or any other part of the bass I don't know or care.

I don't like excessive tweaking in any part of the signal chain in order to get the sound I want.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1331197237' post='1569099']
For me to like a bass it has to sound good flat. Then it'll sound better if I add or subtract a little here and there. Whether that comes from the preamp, pickups or any other part of the bass I don't know or care.

I don't like excessive tweaking in any part of the signal chain in order to get the sound I want.
[/quote]

agree... the warwick preamp was interesting, as the points were more high mid and low low mid they seemed to shape the sound quite well. A bit of high to be more agressive, a bit of lows to fatten it up.
What they couldn't do is a real bass control like the glock. has, but if anything i'm finding that hard to tame.

Maybe I should just find a blend pot and stick the warwick one back in!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1331194402' post='1569046']
You don't happen to be on commission for selling the ACG EQ01 do you
[/quote]

Unfortunately not ;-)

I think that the ACG EQ01 is a fine piece of kit, and I don't think that you should be duplicating tonal functions in different parts of the signal path.

[charic]

[quote]
[b] [size=3]what do you look for in an (onboard) preamp?[/size][/b]

[/quote]

It should sound good

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1331203169' post='1569223']
Unfortunately not ;-)

I think that the ACG EQ01 is a fine piece of kit, and I don't think that you should be duplicating tonal functions in different parts of the signal path.
[/quote]

my thinking here too... my amp is amazing... the eq points are in the perfect places!

-------------------Puma---WW 2band---Glock 2band
Bass boost --//--30--//----------- //-------
Bass=====//==70 ==// ==100 ==//===40
Low mid-----//--250--// ---------//-------
High mid----//--800--// ---------// -------
High=====//== 5k== //===2k==//===18k
High boost-//--10k --//-----------//--------

Of them the glock bass boost is nice, nice and fat, but in playing the bass boost on the puma is more useful and less boomy. It also doesn't overpower the mids as much.
The puma has the bass and treble boost buttons which is just an on off 12dB or something... and the High boost is useful sometimes but just way too much, the glock boost is more usable being higher, and I can hear why they put it up there, but again the 5k point is better to my ears. The ww 2k takes a bit of the high mids with it, not bad actually playing live.

So I prefer my amps eq really.... so what do I need in a preamp? or should I leave it off the whole time?
The ACG is interesting as it would let me do things that other preamps wouldn't- do I need to do those things? hmm
I would need to go visit alan and try one out first too!

Edited March 8, 2012 by LukeFRC

[LukeFRC]

aww crap they all lined up before hang on

[LawrenceH]

Usable EQ is one thing, but something that gets overlooked but matters a lot when using a bass with more than one pickup IMO is whether the preamp buffers each pickup separately before any blending. This will have a real and noticeable effect on tone. Personally I'd want a pre that buffered each separately but with the option for full passive operation, with the appropriate loading.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1331216988' post='1569593']
Usable EQ is one thing, but something that gets overlooked but matters a lot when using a bass with more than one pickup IMO is whether the preamp buffers each pickup separately before any blending. This will have a real and noticeable effect on tone. Personally I'd want a pre that buffered each separately but with the option for full passive operation, with the appropriate loading.
[/quote]
ACG EQ-03 then? This is like a big advert for them!
It is surprising the number of very high end solutions that are passive blend before anything else. We when I say it is surprising I mean, I was surprised, like my warwick preamp (an old 2 band) doesn't but then the pups are active anyway.
anyway I'm rambling, what in your exp is the difference on tone between active blend or passive blend?

[brensabre79]

I have to say I have one of those Eqs with sweepable frequencies. Works great on my fretless where I typically dial in one sound and leave it. To be honest, having a little preset for the frequency inside the control plate would probably suit me better because it keeps getting knocked away from the sweet spot. i never mess with this, just roll off the treble for a bit of Jaco and thats it.

On my main Jazz bass I have a simple 2 band, similar to the MusicMan one on my Sabre - For me this works fine, its not over complicated and I can get what i want in an 8th note rest. I found the ACG a bit complicated in a gig situation to be honest - wonderful though it is. it reminds me of the hofner guitars in the 80s that had a graphic EQ built in, 1,000 sounds in one guitar... only one of them is any use though!

A lot depends on how you use onboard EQ.

I think its best to set your amp up right first then just use the Eq on the bass for when you need a little bit more of something for a particular song. I tend to use the onboard quite sparsely, but it definitely helps to be able to add a bit of twang or boom when needed. I never turn the EQ all the way around.

The EMG 2 band BTQ? i have in my main Jazz is quite good in that you can select the high frequency as well as the curve (HPF or Bell curve) with little preset switches inside. It took me a few goes to get what i wanted but now I have the right amount of the right frequency on tap.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1331227325' post='1569902']
I have to say I have one of those Eqs with sweepable frequencies. Works great on my fretless where I typically dial in one sound and leave it. To be honest, having a little preset for the frequency inside the control plate would probably suit me better because it keeps getting knocked away from the sweet spot. i never mess with this, just roll off the treble for a bit of Jaco and thats it.

On my main Jazz bass I have a simple 2 band, similar to the MusicMan one on my Sabre - For me this works fine, its not over complicated and I can get what i want in an 8th note rest. I found the ACG a bit complicated in a gig situation to be honest - wonderful though it is. it reminds me of the hofner guitars in the 80s that had a graphic EQ built in, 1,000 sounds in one guitar... only one of them is any use though!

A lot depends on how you use onboard EQ.

I think its best to set your amp up right first then just use the Eq on the bass for when you need a little bit more of something for a particular song. I tend to use the onboard quite sparsely, but it definitely helps to be able to add a bit of twang or boom when needed. I never turn the EQ all the way around.

The EMG 2 band BTQ? i have in my main Jazz is quite good in that you can select the high frequency as well as the curve (HPF or Bell curve) with little preset switches inside. It took me a few goes to get what i wanted but now I have the right amount of the right frequency on tap.
[/quote]

just checking, is it the fretless with the ACG filter based preamp in it?

[ikay]

I've posted some audio clips of my ACG (EQ01 pre, mag + piezo) here:

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/168978-got-an-acg-got-a-webcam-ive-got-a-favour-to-ask/page__st__20

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1331244907' post='1570365']
I've posted some audio clips of my ACG (EQ01 pre, mag + piezo) here:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/168978-got-an-acg-got-a-webcam-ive-got-a-favour-to-ask/page__st__20"]http://basschat.co.u...sk/page__st__20[/url]
[/quote]

that is brilliant! thanks!
these things certainly seem to give you a range of sounds!

[brensabre79]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1331228197' post='1569927']
just checking, is it the fretless with the ACG filter based preamp in it?
[/quote]
Yep, Fretless Jazz ACG/East EQ • Fretted Jazz's EMG/Artec 2 band fixed frequencies - similar to musicman 2-band.

[shizznit]

I like 3-band pre-amps that sound great completely flat...as close to a passive tone as possible. If I have to start making huge sweep or cuts on the EQ to get a decent tone it turns me off the bass immediately. Having a switchable mid-frequency control is very useful too when you are in the studio. I much prefer to set my amp up pretty flat and control my tone from the bass. I don't set my gain on the amp to the edge of peaking just so that I can have enough movement to tweak the EQ on the bass without overloading the amp.

My fav pre-amp for years has been Bartolini because they have a very flat response and very clean. They have a weird EQ curve though. Nice and subtle cut and boost for about a 1/4 turn and then wallop! Playing around in that area is a lot of fun and I can get some outrageous tones. Great pre-amps and very dynamic.

I really like the MEC pre-amps on Warwick basses too. I think the best spec is the 2-band EQ pre-amp. I actually swapped out the 3-band that was installed in my Streamers for the 2-band because I preferred them. The exotic woods that Warwick use have a lot of natural mid bark and doesn't need much boosting, but cutting the mids with a 3-band just didn't sound all that great to me and I found the bass a bit too lively (farty, tuba sounding) when boosting them. The low end shape on these pre-amps are mental...so tight...I love em! Warwick installed a Glock on my Dolphin and that was just pure rock evil! Very, very gutsy sounding pre-amp! It really fitted my needs at the time.

The pre-amp on my old Overwater Progress III was probably my fav. Crystal clear, sensitive and uncoloured. It wasn't the loudest pre-amp I have ever used and I had to crank the gain on the amp quite a bit, but it sounded gorgeous. The high end didn't take your head off when cranked all the way, the mid control was incredibly balanced and the low end was as tight as a snare drum. A beautiful piece of electronic engineering by Chris May.

I am switching to a Seymour Duncan pre-amp for my Shuker build that's in progress. I haven't had a lot experience with these pre-amps and I feel that I am taking a bit of gamble, but Jon is pretty confident I will like it. A bit more perkier than a Bart pre-amp, but he said that the sweeps are very similar in nature. Looking forward to hearing the results!

Edited March 9, 2012 by shizznit

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1331291233' post='1570796'] I like 3-band pre-amps that sound great completely flat...as close to a passive tone as possible. If I have to start making huge sweep or cuts on the EQ to get a decent tone it turns me off the bass immediately. Having a switchable mid-frequency control is very useful too when you are in the studio. I much prefer to set my amp up pretty flat and control my tone from the bass. I don't set my gain on the amp to the edge of peaking just so that I can have enough movement to tweak the EQ on the bass without overloading the amp. My fav pre-amp for years has been Bartolini because they have a very flat response and very clean. They have a weird EQ curve though. Nice and subtle cut and boost for about a 1/4 turn and then wallop! Playing around in that area is a lot of fun and I can get some outrageous tones. Great pre-amps and very dynamic. I really like the MEC pre-amps on Warwick basses too. I think the best spec is the 2-band EQ pre-amp. I actually swapped out the 3-band that was installed in my Streamers for the 2-band because I preferred them. The exotic woods that Warwick use have a lot of natural mid bark and doesn't need much boosting, but cutting the mids with a 3-band just didn't sound all that great to me and I found the bass a bit too lively (farty, tuba sounding) when boosting them. The low end shape on these pre-amps are mental...so tight...I love em! Warwick installed a Glock The pre-amp on my old Overwater Progress III was probably my fav. Crystal clear, sensitive and uncoloured. It wasn't the loudest pre-amp I have ever used and I had to crank the gain on the amp quite a bit, but it sounded gorgeous. The high end didn't take your head off when cranked all the way, the mid control was incredibly balanced and the low end was as tight as a snare drum. A beautiful piece of electronic engineering by Chris May. I am switching to a Seymour Duncan pre-amp for my Shuker build that's in progress. I haven't had a lot experience with these pre-amps and I feel that I am taking a bit of gamble, but Jon is pretty confident I will like it. A bit more perkier than a Bart pre-amp, but he said that the sweeps are very similar in nature. Looking forward to hearing the results! [/quote]

How did you find the Glock vs MEC 2 band in the streamer?
I think overwater preamps are made by John East? May be wrong on that...

[shizznit]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1331296410' post='1570906']
How did you find the Glock vs MEC 2 band in the streamer?
I think overwater preamps are made by John East? May be wrong on that...
[/quote]

I had to edit that post because I didn't realise I didn't finish my sentence!

I liked the Glock quite a bit. I was playing in a rock band at the time and the tone I got from that bass was almost identical to Mike Starr (Alice In Chains), which is one of the best rock bass tones IMHO. Sounded awesome! The output signal was daft though for a 9v system. I found myself using a Boss compressor/limiter first in my affects chain to calm it down. It was one heck of an animal with fresh strings! I found myself trying to use that bass througout the gig if I could because as soon as I plugged in another bass the affect was so noticable.

I think the Overwater pre-amps are provided by John East, but to Chris' spec and design. Lawrence tells me that electronics is Chris' forte and there's a bit of magic going on when Chris is working on a bass.

[LukeFRC]

So an interesting evening....

In thinking about preamps and not wanting to spend a load of money on something I did a little experiment.... warwick (in passive) into back of iMac (no audio interface so not great, not bass speakers and a slight delay) and into the great garageband....

and started experimenting.... NOW BEFORE ANYONE SAYS: I know it won't sound like the real thing, and I know that the Q of the eq unit makes a big difference.

there is a graphic EQ (two bandpass two shelving) and played with that, first set it up to the glock frequancies... and it sounded a lot like the glock, very clean with a stupid high point. And yeah. Not that exciting.
Then played with the Puma's Eq points, and boy are they well chosen. Sounds brilliant as my amp does.
And then onto the warwick preamp points which were the most interesting. The high isn't that high as you know, and even on garageband turning it up introduces a load of hiss. But the bass point, a shelving boost at 100Hz and thats the Warwick sound! Useful to know, because even if I go for something utterly different I could build an external box that just boosts there and down or something.

I also played with the built in low cut filter in the range of the ACG which was interesting too.

[LukeFRC]

well I found that last post of mine interesting even if no one else did!