Bad bassist??

[flyfisher]

Interesting stuff. Just to clarify my earlier point about 'locking to the kick', I didn't mean that every kick beat had to be covered by the bass, rather that I thought the kick should be setting the pace, which the bassist then plays around. A bit like practicing to a metronome, where you can play all 'around' the click (including leaving the all important spaces) but it's the metronome driving the timing.

I'm not sure about the drummer not having to set the time for the rest of the band. That's never been my experience, though that could easily be a reflection of my level of playing experience/ability. I imagine that if everyone follows everyone then it will likely only work if everyone is a very experienced and competent and can all react imperceptibly to things, but less experienced players may take longer to react causing a sort of 'hunting' around the desired beat and making the band sound rather 'loose' rather than 'tight'. But if everyone locks to the drums then a 'tight' result is more likely.

But, again, I may not be expressing myself very clearly.

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1331544716' post='1574307']
Interesting stuff. Just to clarify my earlier point about 'locking to the kick', I didn't mean that every kick beat had to be covered by the bass, rather that I thought the kick should be setting the pace, which the bassist then plays around. A bit like practicing to a metronome, where you can play all 'around' the click (including leaving the all important spaces) but it's the metronome driving the timing.

I'm not sure about the drummer not having to set the time for the rest of the band. That's never been my experience, though that could easily be a reflection of my level of playing experience/ability. I imagine that if everyone follows everyone then it will likely only work if everyone is a very experienced and competent and can all react imperceptibly to things, but less experienced players may take longer to react causing a sort of 'hunting' around the desired beat and making the band sound rather 'loose' rather than 'tight'. But if everyone locks to the drums then a 'tight' result is more likely.

But, again, I may not be expressing myself very clearly.
[/quote]

Boom Tish Boom Tish Boom Tish BoomBoom Tish ..

[Dave Vader]

I've never before considered myself to be anything other than brilliant. But since going unlined on my fretless last week, i am less than mediocre with my intonation up above the 9th... boo....

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1331547458' post='1574366']
I've never before considered myself to be anything other than brilliant. But since going unlined on my fretless last week, i am less than mediocre with my intonation up above the 9th... boo....
[/quote]

It's hard innit. How the f*** do violinists manage!

[BigRedX]

Although the idea of "locking in" with the bass drum can be a perfectly valid way of constructing a bass line, IMO it's up there with the idea that a P Bass sounds good in any situation of having only a narrow awareness of musical genres.

The bass is supposed to be the glue between the rhythm and the melody. The bass drum is only a small part of the rhythm in the same way that the lead vocal is only a small part of the melody. A good bassist listens to the whole rhythm and what all the melodic instruments are doing and then constructs a part that fits in and joins them all together.

There are "rules" for various types of music that listeners will expect, but these rules vary depending on the genre and even then it's always fun to push the boundaries. The only important thing is: Does it sound good?

From a personal view, my first band didn't have a conventional drummer - just a percussionist with no bass drum. The instrument that set the rhythm and tempo was the rhythm guitar and the rest of us played to that. My next band used a drum machine that was programmed with very unconventional and abstract rhythms. In fact, I'd been playing for almost 10 years before I started using "conventional" pop/rock drummer rhythms in my songs - and even then it was done on a drum machine. I didn't join a band with a conventional drummer and me playing bass for another 10 years, so by then I had been playing for a long time without being a "slave" to the bass drum. Because of this background I've always listened to the whole band for both rhythm and melody and worked from there when working out a bass part.

[discreet]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331547840' post='1574373']
It's hard innit. How the f*** do violinists manage!
[/quote]

Ah, but their fretless basses are tiny and they hold them right up under their faces.

[JTUK]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331493753' post='1573759']
Mate, you are advising someone with little confidence to do something which may give them even less confidence. You know as little about his problem as we do, and yet you prescribe him with 'constant heartbeat' and go on to deride his drummer's use of the kick.

When someone here who may be inexperienced asks for help, I believe we need to consider the level of influence they may take from what we say, get them to examine the root cause of their problems - not just give them a new set of problems, and act with a sense of responsibility to them in mind.
[/quote]

Well, I hope you remember that advice as well.
FWIW, I agree we are off topic......................but I would say that if someone is struggling and they ask for advice on a public forum or post about something they don't get
then at least this is pretty in-house.
I think you should be able to fix this sort of stuff within the confines of the band and no one outside needs to know what it took to fix it.
With the collective wisdom here.,.or not... then this might be their best source.

And if yopu are loking for references or standards of practice then I have given them some.

They may ignore it or the may take it in..but it isn't wrong. I wont repeat it but if anyone is interested, I'm basically saying what they need to be aware of..
IIRC..the OP was about being a bad bassist .... their defintion, not mine... well, if they can bring the drums up to speed, they will both sound way better.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1331548305' post='1574380']
From a personal view, my first band didn't have a conventional drummer - just a percussionist with no bass drum.
[/quote]
Now you mention it, that's a good description of our drummer.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331547840' post='1574373']
It's hard innit. How the f*** do violinists manage!
[/quote]

It's cos I'm playing with a violinist at the moment, that my vanity took over and made me swap out my lined neck for an unlined. Means that we are now both compensating for each other's intonation and telling the guitar player she's out of tune.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331544970' post='1574314']
Boom Tish Boom Tish Boom Tish BoomBoom Tish ..
[/quote]

Not available for drumming gigs are you?

[Linus27]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331495766' post='1573810']
I have had one bass lesson in my life, it was with Jake Newman. I only needed that single lesson. Jake made one remark that stunned me, completely floored me, and that one remark was the essence of what it meant for me to realise my musicianship. And that the most important thing you can do, before all else, is to open your ears, absorb EVERYTHING you can, and turn it into music that reflects YOU. Develop your aesthetic in other words, develop your inner VOICE, then learn how to externalise your voice in such a way that they become one and the same.

The object lesson of this is to then develop the musical and technical skills you need to reflect your inner voice with as much accuracy as possible.

This is what I wrote on Jake's Bass Tutors thread later ..

[i]"Never having had a bass lesson ever, I had my first lesson with Jake Newman (Jakesbass on 'ere) a few hours ago. All I can say is my mind has been opened like a bloody flower! I'm no newbie to this bass biznis but blimey, has Jake taken me apart. I feel like a musician all of a sudden but with so much personal expression to learn. We talked a lot of the time and this was a massively important part of the session.[/i]

[i]My most enormous f***ing lesson for tonight was: [b]Sing what you hear in your head, then play it on the bass. Jake was singing me what he heard in his head, then playing it on the bass milliseconds later. I, being the competitive sort, had a bash at the same thing, Jake told me I was singing what I was playing, not playing what I was singing. He was absolutely right. I really thought I was playing what I was singing, but I truly wasn't and I instinctively knew that. A very humbling and exciting experience.[/b] It taught me a lot about myself and a helluva lot about why I didn't feel I was expressing myself musically. I am restricted by my technique, my repetitive patterns and my lack of/mis understanding of basic theory. I have some homework and I am raring to go! I can't believe how beneficial one lesson from a real musician (one making a living at it, one who has played with such notable musicians, and who is so accomplished at personal expression through a piece of wood with strings on it.) could be."[/i]

I never followed the exercises Jake gave me other than a few cursory attempts. The lesson made me realise that I have a quite well developed musical aesthetic and that what I need to do is learn how to play the music in my head. It feeds off itself and I really do feel I am developing a style and approach unique to me. If I can't play what I hear in my head, then I damn well learn how to very quickly, because then I can express myself. I can't play Jazz, or Country, or Rock n Roll, or Funk, or Afrobeat, or Reggae, or ... What I can do, most of the time, is play ME. And thankfully, the bands I'm in appreciate and like what I do because, I believe, I have an aesthetic that includes the practical and emotional needs of myself, the other musicians, and the SONG.

Sorry for the self-aggrandizing rambling post.
[/quote]

This is exactly how I have written bass lines for the last 23 years. I even sing into a small recorder/phone if I don't have a bass at hand.

[Linus27]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331487239' post='1573578']
Some really bad advice here from a few people who really should know better!

The basics are that you play to the drummer; therefore all good bands tend to have someone behind the kit who has good time & feel - generally the drummer should dictate the pace of a song and assuming that he is playing a backbeat (i.e. rock, funk, etc.) then the bass player should lock onto the bass drum i.e. [b]every bass drum beat should be covered by a note played by the bass[/b]

King Billy is, as ever, quite right! But then again, it’s pretty basic stuff…..
[/quote]

Sorry but this is not true. You can play an offbeat note, playing a single bass note on the snare leaving the bass drum beat free of any bass guitar note in the same way a reggae rhythm guitar part is played. This creates a driving offbeat feel especially if the drummer plays 4s on the hi-hat.

[peteb]

[quote name='Linus27' timestamp='1331553223' post='1574527']


Sorry but this is not true. You can play an offbeat note, playing a single bass note on the snare leaving the bass drum beat free of any bass guitar note in the same way a reggae rhythm guitar part is played. This creates a driving offbeat feel especially if the drummer plays 4s on the hi-hat.
[/quote]
OK...... I am happy to stand corrected on this point but would like to hear some recorded examples of how this works first!

Certainly an unusual way of way of doing things and dunno if it would work but I would certainly like to hear what it sounds like!

[Linus27]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331554131' post='1574546']
OK...... I am happy to stand corrected on this point but would like to hear some recorded examples of how this works first!

Certainly an unusual way of way of doing things and dunno if it would work but I would certainly like to hear what it sounds like!
[/quote]

Ok, I will have to try and dig them out when I get home. I may even record an example and post it up. It was something I noticed the Disco genre did which was then crossed over into 80's pop music. Its not that un-common.

[KevB]

I've just had a track sent to me by someone looking for a bass player, it's an original tune and he's played guitar, synth and bass on it with a drummer. Although it is interesting it is beginning to look uncomfortably like it might be technically beyond me which is a bit embarassing as I've not had problems in my covers bands up to now. I guess it has really rammed home to me my general averageness on the instrument. I'm raising it as one of the issues is related to Peteb and Linus27's discussion above. The drums are in 4/4 but what is being played over the top of them isn't and it varies slightly even in repeated sections. I started by 'locking in' to the drums only to find I was slowly getting further and further out with what is being played over the top of them, bit of a nightmare. Going to perservere with it though for a while yet.

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331554131' post='1574546']
OK...... I am happy to stand corrected on this point but would like to hear some recorded examples of how this works first!

Certainly an unusual way of way of doing things and dunno if it would work but I would certainly like to hear what it sounds like!
[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpSMaY2XAbM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpSMaY2XAbM[/url]

[xilddx]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1331554598' post='1574557']
I've just had a track sent to me by someone looking for a bass player, it's an original tune and he's played guitar, synth and bass on it with a drummer. Although it is interesting it is beginning to look uncomfortably like it might be technically beyond me which is a bit embarassing as I've not had problems in my covers bands up to now. I guess it has really rammed home to me my general averageness on the instrument. I'm raising it as one of the issues is related to Peteb and Linus27's discussion above. The drums are in 4/4 but what is being played over the top of them isn't and it varies slightly even in repeated sections. I started by 'locking in' to the drums only to find I was slowly getting further and further out with what is being played over the top of them, bit of a nightmare. Going to perservere with it though for a while yet.
[/quote]

Polyrhythms brother. I LOVE them.

[4000]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1331548305' post='1574380']
Although the idea of "locking in" with the bass drum can be a perfectly valid way of constructing a bass line, IMO it's up there with the idea that a P Bass sounds good in any situation of having only a narrow awareness of musical genres.

The bass is supposed to be the glue between the rhythm and the melody. The bass drum is only a small part of the rhythm in the same way that the lead vocal is only a small part of the melody. A good bassist listens to the whole rhythm and what all the melodic instruments are doing and then constructs a part that fits in and joins them all together.

There are "rules" for various types of music that listeners will expect, but these rules vary depending on the genre and even then it's always fun to push the boundaries. The only important thing is: Does it sound good?

From a personal view, my first band didn't have a conventional drummer - just a percussionist with no bass drum. The instrument that set the rhythm and tempo was the rhythm guitar and the rest of us played to that. My next band used a drum machine that was programmed with very unconventional and abstract rhythms. In fact, I'd been playing for almost 10 years before I started using "conventional" pop/rock drummer rhythms in my songs - and even then it was done on a drum machine. I didn't join a band with a conventional drummer and me playing bass for another 10 years, so by then I had been playing for a long time without being a "slave" to the bass drum. Because of this background I've always listened to the whole band for both rhythm and melody and worked from there when working out a bass part.
[/quote]

Makes utter sense to me.

FWIW about 90% of what comes out of my head (apart from when I'm noodling), from the simplest riff to the most complex harmony, is sung (I use the term loosely ;-))either inwardly or outwardly before I even touch an instrument. Like you, I used to assume most players were the same, until I met people who had no idea what I was doing.

[4000]

[quote name='Linus27' timestamp='1331552263' post='1574501']


I even sing into a small recorder/phone if I don't have a bass at hand.
[/quote]

This is how I write almost everything, from melodies to harmonies to chord structures to guitar parts to keyboard lines to bass lines to drum parts.

[shizznit]

I have been playing for about 18yrs and though I would say that I am confident and proficient in some areas I wouldn't consider myself to be a virtuoso by any stretch of the imagination. During my experience I have had a lot of highs and lows about how I review myself as a musician. The trick is not to be too hard on yourself. It doesn't come down to how technical your are or how much theory you know. You have to be comfortable how you want to fit into music and how it speaks to you. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

[lojo]

I spent so long not enjoying aspects of playing/being in a band due to thinking I wasn't good enough, but the truth is I can do whats required of me to a good standard, yes I can get a lot better, learn to play things I cant play right now, and some even on here would have you believe your nothing without theory, but it all depends what your goals are. My goals are clear, to continue to play in covers bands and enjoy music and gigging, all of which is a self financing hobby where I get invited back.

Its more of a life lesson than applied just to bass playing, I felt the same at football for years as I did bass playing, now Im just enjoying things, I know what Im not or never will be, but really did waste alot of time stressing about it

[peteb]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331554761' post='1574563']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpSMaY2XAbM[/media]
[/quote]
Brilliant piece of music but hardly a backbeat (which is what we were talking about).....

[icastle]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331547840' post='1574373']
It's hard innit. How the f*** do violinists manage!
[/quote]

They don't fret.

I'll get me coat...

[Linus27]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331554131' post='1574546']
OK...... I am happy to stand corrected on this point but would like to hear some recorded examples of how this works first!

Certainly an unusual way of way of doing things and dunno if it would work but I would certainly like to hear what it sounds like!
[/quote]

OK, a very very crude recording here but it gives you the impression. I could not program EZdrummer to play exactly the drum beat so here it is playing a standard 4/4 bass/snare/bass/snare with the hi-hat playing 4's over it. In reality it would be bass/hi-hat/bass/snare with the bass guitar playing the root on the hi-hit and snare part. I so with I could think of the songs that use this beat. If I do I will link it up.

[url="http://soundcloud.com/michael-boylan/offbeat"]http://soundcloud.com/michael-boylan/offbeat[/url]

[peteb]

[quote name='Linus27' timestamp='1331580626' post='1575316']
OK, a very very crude recording here but it gives you the impression. I could not program EZdrummer to play exactly the drum beat so here it is playing a standard 4/4 bass/snare/bass/snare with the hi-hat playing 4's over it. In reality it would be bass/hi-hat/bass/snare with the bass guitar playing the root on the hi-hit and snare part. I so with I could think of the songs that use this beat. If I do I will link it up.

[url="http://soundcloud.com/michael-boylan/offbeat"]http://soundcloud.co...-boylan/offbeat[/url]
[/quote]
Thanks for making the effort to put that up, nicely played if I may say so! I do kinda see what you’re getting at but it’s not how I would normally approach playing a groove (maybe a middle 8)

I do think that we all may be getting a bit carried away with ourselves here. I waded into this thread because Doddy said that Billy Sheehan was wrong to say that a bass player should lock in with the bass drum – basically I thought that Doddy was wrong! I am then backed into a corner and end up saying that the bass should always cover every bass drum beat, which of course is the general rule but as we all know musical rules are there to be broken whenever the fancy takes us!

I’ve just been listening to a Steve Lukather CD in the car and as a result of this thread found myself listening to the rhythm section rather than just the songs / vocals / guitar playing. As you might expect, exemplary playing and a variety of different grooves – but every bass drum hit is covered by a bass guitar note……….!

Edited March 12, 2012 by peteb