Bad bassist??

[Doddy]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331585224' post='1575461']
I do think that we all may be getting a bit carried away with ourselves here. I waded into this thread because Doddy said that Billy Sheehan was wrong to say that a bass player should lock in with the bass drum – basically I thought that Doddy was wrong!
[/quote]

I never said Sheehan was wrong. I used him as an example of a prominent rock bass player who many times has said
about being 'married' to the bass drum,which is a concept that I think can be very misleading.
Like I said a couple of times in this thread,that has it's place and can sound great-but the bass doesn't have to play the same
as the bass drum...That's all. To say that you should play on every bass drum beat is wrong.You can still be locked in
with the drums (all of them) without playing in unison with the bass drum all the time.

[Linus27]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331585224' post='1575461']
Thanks for making the effort to put that up, nicely played if I may say so! I do kinda see what you’re getting at but it’s not how I would normally approach playing a groove (maybe a middle 8)

I do think that we all may be getting a bit carried away with ourselves here. I waded into this thread because Doddy said that Billy Sheehan was wrong to say that a bass player should lock in with the bass drum – basically I thought that Doddy was wrong! I am then backed into a corner and end up saying that the bass should always cover every bass drum beat, which of course is the general rule but as we all know musical rules are there to be broken whenever the fancy takes us!

I’ve just been listening to a Steve Lukather CD in the car and as a result of this thread found myself listening to the rhythm section rather than just the songs / vocals / guitar playing. As you might expect, exemplary playing and a variety of different grooves – but every bass drum hit is covered by a bass guitar note……….!
[/quote]

Hey thanks. Sorry if you felt backed into a corner. Certainly not my intention. I just feel that with music there are no rules regardless of what anyone educated or uneducated in music says. Music to me is all about expression, freedom and communication. How you choose to do this is totally up to the individual and there is no right or wrong, be it on the beat, off the beat or some other method that the musician feels is right. Music is a blank canvas and in my opinion there are no paint by number in music.

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331577460' post='1575212']
Brilliant piece of music but hardly a backbeat (which is what we were talking about).....
[/quote]
Ah, I thought you wanted bass not on the kick creating a groove.

I'll sort summat out.

[peteb]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331588402' post='1575547']
Ah, I thought you wanted bass not on the kick creating a groove.

I'll sort summat out.
[/quote]
Reminds me of a few jam sessions where we used to try to drop into reggae bits in the middle of a song - trying to get guys who were used to playing rock or blues to not play on the '1' was almost impossible....!

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331577460' post='1575212']
Brilliant piece of music but hardly a backbeat (which is what we were talking about).....
[/quote]

'ere you go ..

http://soundcloud.com/silddx/silddxs-brown-bossa-thats

[xilddx]

I'll try to get time to record a bass line without hitting the kick back beat tomorrow.

In the mean time, here's one for the geezer who has trouble playing a groove without a kick drum ..

http://soundcloud.com/silddx/tin-pan-1

[thunderbird13]

With reference to being a bad player or not I have always considered myself below average simply because I don’t seem to be able to “ lock” with the drummer And just to be clear here I’m talking about playing classic rock covers – no polyrhymic nonsense . I expect the theory is that the drummer uses the bass drum to count the bars and then uses all the other drums and cymbals to add texture to that rhythm, so it makes perfect sense to say that the bass player should “ lock” in with the bass drum as it means that you and the drummer are both counting the one and therefore playing in time.
BUT almost every drummer I’ve played with ( between 20 – 30 and counting !) does not seem to use the bass drum in that way . there is a lot of rests and playing off the offbeat with the bass drum and that confuses me as I don’t know whether I should follow that or not. SO what I have done is a compromise and play to where the kick should be which tends to mean that I play off the snare and hi hat more than the bass drum. I genuinely don’t know if this is correct or not but as I say I’ve always felt that I’m cheating and not really locking at all.
Its just occoured to me that the drummer is usually the band member that I bond with less socially as well ( in very general terms ) I wonder is these two things are linked as well !

[JTUK]

For a start, the bass drum accent does not determine the bar count, unless he is playng 4 on the floor, which is a disco dance term.
The count of the song is beats per min... and you'd equate this with the count the drums may give at the start of the song, either with sticks or not, or even a plain 1,2,3,4.
That becomes the time and tempo of the song. And with that set, you can count down the bars throughout, should you want to.
or simple common time 4/4, most people feel the sections in 4, 8 or 16 bar groups as this is most natural to us.

You don't have to lock onto the bass drum exclusively, altho a lot do, but you do have to lock into his rhythm.. there may be parts of the song
where the kick is out but you can play... but the simplest and most effective way of sounding like a unit is to play along with what the drums do, and accent his
most important beats.

I am a bit confused about how you describe these 20-30 or so drummers playing.
There must be songs that would need and use the more simple patterns, and within the count of 4, it would go
kick, snare, kick snare..with the kick on beats 1 and 3 and the snare on 2 and 4. and that would be your count-thru of the bars should you be using a chart or needing to know where you are in any section of a song.
It takes a special drummer to make that simple bar structure drum pattern alone really interesting
which is why they may use a back beat on the snare or whatever ..but mostly they will add a hi-hat pattern over it, to jazz it a little.
And then..some drummers can make that sound amazing and others like treading water.

As I say, I am a little confused here..you may get one or two quirky drummers but not 20 or so...

The essense of the drummer is to provide a very constant pattern through the section of bars..so verse goes 8 bars of this pattern and 8 bars of a different chorus pattern typically, but one thing he nevers does is waver with the tempo is 99% of songs.

Did I read your post right with this reply.?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1331633737' post='1576085']

You don't have to lock onto the bass drum exclusively, altho a lot do, but you do have to lock into his rhythm.. there may be parts of the song
where the kick is out but you can play... but the simplest and most effective way of sounding like a unit is to play along with what the drums do, and accent his
most important beats.
[/quote]
That's a better description of what I was trying to say. I expect the drummer to provide the rhythm and this is usually 'driven' by the kick drum (in the stuff I tend to play anyway). This doesn't mean the drummer must always kick on the 1 (we've already acknowledged the importance of space) or that the bass should play over every kick, but to be really tight the drummer and bassist should be playing to the exact rhythm - like quantising things in a DAW.

I suspect that drummers have an internal 'click' (or sometimes an actual in-ear click these days) to provide the solid 1 2 3 4 rhythm and plays to that, using the kick to 'drive' things. My issue, I think, is that our drummer doesn't use the kick because he doesn't have that inner click' and relies on me to provide that driving rhythm and he locks to me. If I play 1234 then it works ok, but I don't always do that and if I try something else he'll slightly lose his rhythm. I then have to decide whether to try to pull/push him back onto the beat or readjust my own rhythm to match him, which then affects everyone else. Thus, it can all get a bit loose. As you might imagine the scale of the problem varies with the nature of the song, but it's generally frustrating.

I hope that's a bit clearer. I've tried suggesting he tries playing to a click but he doesn't take the hint.

[Townes1992]

Thats a real interesting read. With regards to the kick drum, I dont feel experienced enough to comment on whether or not i should be locking onto it. But I know i probably dont take into consideration other instruments i hear as much as i should. I listen for the rhythm and timing and play around it but i'm sure more time spent on really focusing on what the other instruments are doing would help.

Nevertheless, with my regards to my original post of feeling like a not so good bassist, reading the amount of time you guys have been playing puts my inexperience into perspective. And i am probably being hard on myself, more so than i should be. There are moments in which i am proud of what i have learnt etc, but it then there are down times!

The songs that you guys posted were very cool by the way

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1331633737' post='1576085']

I am a bit confused about how you describe these 20-30 or so drummers playing.
There must be songs that would need and use the more simple patterns, and within the count of 4, it would go
kick, snare, kick snare..with the kick on beats 1 and 3 and the snare on 2 and 4. and that would be your count-thru of the bars should you be using a chart or needing to know where you are in any section of a song.
It takes a special drummer to make that simple bar structure drum pattern alone really interesting
which is why they may use a back beat on the snare or whatever ..but mostly they will add a hi-hat pattern over it, to jazz it a little.
And then..some drummers can make that sound amazing and others like treading water.

As I say, I am a little confused here..you may get one or two quirky drummers but not 20 or so...

[/quote]

what your saying about kick snare , kick snare is exactly how I would expect it to happen which casues my confusion when it does'nt because I then have to translate in my head where the kick should be and play that. Honestly the biggest problem I have playing in bands is dealing with the drummer its Ok when they start off but normally halfway through a song they tend to get bored and wander all over the kit
Perhaps its me - as I said I'm only really a below average player so it may be that I'm not getting it Does anyone else have this problem with drummers ?

[Mark_Bass]

I think if you thought you were amazing that would be worse.
If your practicing solo or with a band, learning songs or writing bass lines then you'll be amazed as to how good you are.
But if you're not practicing, trying to fit a fill in every other bar and consistently tripping over the guitar and vocal lines or playing in a way that detracts from the rest of the band then you'll probably a bad bassist.
Its harder to be out of time with a band than in-time i think.
Ive rehearsed with one drummer on one day, in the metal band i was in, he'd play heel toe double kicks and blast beats at ridiculous speeds, technically brilliant, and we'd be right on the money in terms of the three musicians being tighter than a dancers chuff, though i admit we were having to use click tracks for the backing vocals etc. So in sense there was no real reason for us to go out of time,
The next night i'd rehearse with my covers band filled with guys who play for fun in a garage, having played with such a tight band the night before i was more aware that the drummer speeds-up and slow down when the beat should remain consistant but, on the flip side because the band was "tight" as a single unit it didn't really stand out, i think if i had made a point of staying at the tempo we first started the song at then the groove and feel of the track would have suffered, the guitarists would have been conflicted as to follow me or the drummer.
The problem i have in the covers band is if the drummer isn't 'feeling' the track, or is overly tired from work then his groove suffers and that does have a larger impact the rest of the band.

[BigRedX]

Townes1992 - do you play in a band?

[Bassdriver]

[quote name='Mark_Bass' timestamp='1331637098' post='1576165']
The problem i have in the covers band is if the drummer isn't 'feeling' the track, or is overly tired from work then his groove suffers and that does have a larger impact the rest of the band.
[/quote]

But this is true for all of the band isn't it?

I think the thing with playing in time is that the whole band has to be able play in time as a cohesive unit rather than each player keeping their own time. For me it's about feel and being free to play around the beat, pushing slightly ahead or holding slightly back as the feel of the songs requires.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Mark_Bass' timestamp='1331637098' post='1576165']

The next night i'd rehearse with my covers band filled with guys who play for fun in a garage, having played with such a tight band the night before i was more aware that the drummer speeds-up and slow down when the beat should remain consistant but, on the flip side because the band was "tight" as a single unit it didn't really stand out, i think if i had made a point of staying at the tempo we first started the song at then the groove and feel of the track would have suffered, the guitarists would have been conflicted as to follow me or the drummer.

[/quote]

I think this is a really interesting point and I'm always in 2 minds what to do when the drummer slows down or speeds up - do I follow him and try to make everything seem tight or do I remain on what I think the correct tempo is and hope that everyone pulls themselves back onto that.

[xilddx]

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1331636730' post='1576157']
what your saying about kick snare , kick snare is exactly how I would expect it to happen which casues my confusion when it does'nt because I then have to translate in my head where the kick should be and play that. Honestly the biggest problem I have playing in bands is dealing with the drummer its Ok when they start off but normally halfway through a song they tend to get bored and wander all over the kit
Perhaps its me - as I said I'm only really a below average player so it may be that I'm not getting it Does anyone else have this problem with drummers ?
[/quote]

Mate, I think you should stop thinking about these ridiculous 'rules' people keep saying we should follow, and FEEL the music. That's sounds simpler than it is though. We all need to learn how to let go of the conscious self and feel the inner music. Then when your drummer hits you with a beat, you will be able to set something up with the bass by 'instinct' (I don't like this word but I can't think of a better), and use your taste and judgement to render it into something musical. Stop following rules and let your musical 'instinct' take over. As soon as someone says 'it's in Db' or 'stick to the ride cymbal' you stop being musical and start following instructions.

[Bassdriver]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331639469' post='1576249']
Mate, I think you should stop thinking about these ridiculous 'rules' people keep saying we should follow, and FEEL the music.and start following instructions.
[/quote]

Have to agree here. It's all about feel. When cavemen or whoever first started banging things together in rythmic fashion they weren't thinking ' I need to play this in a 7/8 shuffle'. They were going with the feel.

[JTUK]

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1331638794' post='1576215']
I think this is a really interesting point and I'm always in 2 minds what to do when the drummer slows down or speeds up - do I follow him and try to make everything seem tight or do I remain on what I think the correct tempo is and hope that everyone pulls themselves back onto that.
[/quote]

No, you don't ..if the drummers wavers, then you have to keep him on time, you don't want to go with him, ideally. It really should be the job of the drummer,to set time and tempo, but if he can't do it, you have two choices... get someone who can, which is the better option, IMO, or you have to dictate when he can't. This is pain for the other players and really should be the last resort.

[JTUK]

I don't get people saying ignore the rules when the most basic rule is following decent time.
You need to adhere to basic time because you are playing with others...there must be a template or tempo or else it is a free-for all.

If the count is arbitary or a guess, you will pretty soon have a mess. The feel is subjective, the time is absolute.

And nexdt rule is to play with people who can do this... it saves you so much hassle and bother.

I put it to the two posters who were describing problems with their drummer, that wouldn't it be easier for them, if the drummer played decent time and a regular pattern. The regular pattern is less of a hard and fast rule, but it sure helps if he plays a section consistantly with a set drum pattern. It is total crap if a drummer goes off and starts moving the kick around...for the only reason that he is bored and has just thought of something else to do...when that leaves everyone who has tried to lock in ..high and dry..????

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1331640124' post='1576270']
No, you don't ..if the drummers wavers, then you have to keep him on time, you don't want to go with him, ideally. [b]It really should be the job of the drummer,to set time and tempo,[/b] but if he can't do it, you have two choices... get someone who can, which is the better option, IMO, or you have to dictate when he can't. This is pain for the other players and really should be the last resort.
[/quote]

Don't agree with the bold bit, but I agree with the rest.

The drummers and percussionists I play with are superb and can move around and inside time so I don't have T'Bird's problems thankfully. Kit sets the tempo in her band, the drummer follows. In the TGU projects the backing track sets the time and the drummer flows through it. Sheema the sitarist sets the tempo & tempo changes through the compositions and the tabla player must follow the sitar -I suppose this is a rule, but that's the way it has to work and the arrangements are generally fluid.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1331640720' post='1576283']
I don't get people saying ignore the rules when the most basic rule is following decent time.
You need to adhere to basic time because you are playing with others...there must be a template or tempo or else it is a free-for all.

If the count is arbitary or a guess, you will pretty soon have a mess. The feel is subjective, the time is absolute.

And nexdt rule is to play with people who can do this... it saves you so much hassle and bother.

I put it to the two posters who were describing problems with their drummer, that wouldn't it be easier for them, if the drummer played decent time and a regular pattern. The regular pattern is less of a hard and fast rule, but it sure helps if he plays a section consistantly with a set drum pattern. [b]It is total crap if a drummer goes off and starts moving the kick around...for the only reason that he is bored and has just thought of something else to do...when that leaves everyone who has tried to lock in ..high and dry..????[/b]
[/quote]

This is simply not true is it. If it's done musically what's the problem? You sound like you are talking about inexperienced musicians who get lost easily. If you are, no worries I'll back off.

[JTUK]

You are then using the backing track to do the job a drummer would do.
Your Kit singer might count the song in but this tempo is pre-determined and the drummer then takes over. It is going to be utterly pointelss to count in at 80bpm and then the drummer do something else.
Kit might be the leader and take responsibilty for the count-in..but then that should be set in stone. AT post mortens, you can say that that song was too fast/slow or whatever, but the leader takes the flak for it. No problem, it is their deal...but it would be amateur hour if the drummer changed it mid-song.

As for moving around within..fine..but you should all better know where the 1 should be or else you'll likely not hit that intro, so therefore you can get fancy with the pattern but not the time. or else..again amateur hour and a train wreck....or a LOT of visual cues.

[JTUK]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331641169' post='1576292']
This is simply not true is it. If it's done musically what's the problem? You sound like you are talking about inexperienced musicians who get lost easily. If you are, no worries I'll back off.
[/quote]

I have to say, the way you explain the set-up...it sounds a shambles and a guessimate. I am talking about the pattern going awol and you think that is ok....???
You can all go and get lost in the music..and then pull it all together when you want to get back in to the main pattern.
Reading your posts, I think this would be a recipe for a disaster. but then I also get the impression that happy free-for-all train wreck suits the concept.
If it happens, then ok...to be expected, if it doesn't, we have a chance of pulling of something really interesting...for the band..!!

Why would I get lost in a track..? I am counting to a set pattern..I am not making things up as we go...and hoping it will be alright if we all wave and look out for each other.

The way you seem to work...not sure you have a clue, tbh. which is ok if it works..upto a point. But when you have to put yourself into a mainstream situation, I doubt you'll have the tools and will be out of your depth pretty quickly....if you ignore or can't follow simple basics...or rules, if you prefer.
Sorry if this offends...but jeeeeeeeeeezus..!!

Edited March 13, 2012 by JTUK

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1331641511' post='1576305']
You are then using the backing track to do the job a drummer would do.
Your Kit singer might count the song in but this tempo is pre-determined and the drummer then takes over. It is going to be utterly pointelss to count in at 80bpm and then the drummer do something else.
Kit might be the leader and take responsibilty for the count-in..but then that should be set in stone. AT post mortens, you can say that that song was too fast/slow or whatever, but the leader takes the flak for it. No problem, it is their deal...but it would be amateur hour if the drummer changed it mid-song.

As for moving around within..fine..but you should all better know where the 1 should be or else you'll likely not hit that intro, so therefore you can get fancy with the pattern but not the time. or else..again amateur hour and a train wreck....or a LOT of visual cues.
[/quote]

I play with musicians who know where the ONE is.

What's all this sudden change of tack to tempo keeping then? I thought we were talking about kick drums and bass and locking in?

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1331641679' post='1576310']
I have to say, the way you explain the set-up...it sounds a shambles and a guessimate.

Why would I get lost in a track..? I am counting to a set pattern..I am not making things up as we go...and hoping it will be alright if we all wave and look out for each other.
[/quote]
Not sure I understand mate. What set-up? And who said anything about you getting lost in a track?