Big outdoor stages, how can i use (and hear) the DB?

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='marvin spangles' timestamp='1331595382' post='1575719']
Hey Bassinmyface
I certainly wouldn't see this as a deal breaker re Db.
There is certainly a solution out there somewhere. What is the instrumentation of your band?
[/quote]

Drums, gypsy guitar, keys, 2 vocalists and a big old array of synths and samplers. It's the electro stuff that causes the problems, with electro beats and samples you need a big prominent bass sound to keep up. And yes in all fairness electric bass is probably the logical choice buuuuuut, it's electro swing and getting the db to swing and bring up the old time time sound really adds to the character we are trying to get. Old meets new if you see what I mean. For this reason I'm seeing the mag pickup as a perfect solution, it will reproduce some of the character of the db (hopefully enough to differentiate it from the EB) but have the power, punch and reliability of EB. Only problem is string choice, ideally I want nylon low tension to thump and click but so far can only really find the Presto nylon wound/ jazzicato that has a metal core suitable for mag pickups. There goes another 100 beans........

[TPJ]

[quote name='BassInMyFace' timestamp='1331631686' post='1576016']
Drums, gypsy guitar, keys, 2 vocalists and a big old array of synths and samplers. It's the electro stuff that causes the problems, with electro beats and samples you need a big prominent bass sound to keep up. And yes in all fairness electric bass is probably the logical choice buuuuuut, it's electro swing and getting the db to swing and bring up the old time time sound really adds to the character we are trying to get. Old meets new if you see what I mean. For this reason I'm seeing the mag pickup as a perfect solution, it will reproduce some of the character of the db (hopefully enough to differentiate it from the EB) but have the power, punch and reliability of EB. Only problem is string choice, ideally I want nylon low tension to thump and click but so far can only really find the Presto nylon wound/ jazzicato that has a metal core suitable for mag pickups. There goes another 100 beans........
[/quote]

Sounds like a fun gig.

You could try bumping Spiros. That would give you the metal content and low tension. I think slobluesine may do this.

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='BassInMyFace' timestamp='1331631686' post='1576016']
Drums, gypsy guitar, keys, 2 vocalists and a big old array of synths and samplers. It's the electro stuff that causes the problems, with electro beats and samples you need a big prominent bass sound to keep up. And yes in all fairness electric bass is probably the logical choice buuuuuut, it's electro swing and getting the db to swing and bring up the old time time sound really adds to the character we are trying to get. Old meets new if you see what I mean. For this reason I'm seeing the mag pickup as a perfect solution, it will reproduce some of the character of the db (hopefully enough to differentiate it from the EB) but have the power, punch and reliability of EB. Only problem is string choice, ideally I want nylon low tension to thump and click but so far can only really find the Presto nylon wound/ jazzicato that has a metal core suitable for mag pickups. There goes another 100 beans........
[/quote]
Sounds fascinating. I see what you mean re wanting to use the Db.
The way I see it is that either the band plays quieter on stage or you get a PU system that doesn't feedback.
I can't see you getting round the problem without getting a more suitable PU. Sounds like you should be having this conversation with your bandmates and soundman. Keyboards have a wide frequency spectrum and can be a nightmare especially when they play in the low end. I was playing the EB in Superstar and was told repeatedly that the bass was too loud. After the nth time I stopped playing and was still told that the bass was too loud. Of course it was the keys all the time. (They were using keys to cover synts and strings etc.) I managed to persuade the keys to turn down and it least became manageable.

[zero9]

It's not the type of pup which causes feedback, it's the resonance caused in the body from the speaker. Using a magnetic pup won't reduce feedback any more compared with a piezo. At the end of the day it's trial and error what works best. I'm using a K&K bassmax which is giving good results and little feedback at volume. If you want a fingerboard click, then this is what I'd recommend.

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='zero9' timestamp='1331643231' post='1576369']
It's not the type of pup which causes feedback, it's the resonance caused in the body from the speaker.
[/quote]Some are more prone to feedback than others.

[fatback]

[quote name='marvin spangles' timestamp='1331645144' post='1576426']
Some are more prone to feedback than others.
[/quote]

+1. I fixed most of my feedback problem by moving from bassmax to full circle. On a different bass I might have had a different experience.

It's been suggested too that steel strings can be more feedback prone than others. In my case, the A string is the resonant one, but i can notch filter out the problem.

btw, have you tried using the DHA as a notch filter and sweeping for the troublesome frequencies? It was pointed out to me on here that each bass has a resonant frequency that's always the same and you can find that and just set your notch to sit there. That tip has helped me, along with raising the cab (although not as high as I used to).

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='zero9' timestamp='1331643231' post='1576369']
It's not the type of pup which causes feedback, it's the resonance caused in the body from the speaker. Using a magnetic pup won't reduce feedback any more compared with a piezo. At the end of the day it's trial and error what works best. I'm using a K&K bassmax which is giving good results and little feedback at volume. If you want a fingerboard click, then this is what I'd recommend.
[/quote]

Are you sure about this? Resonance in the body shouldn't be picked up by a magnetic pickup unless the bass is made of metal right? Yes resonance could transfer back onto strings but damping them with hand should stop feedback.

That's why electric basses don't feedback. The reason piezo pups feedback is because resonance in body is picked up directly as vibrations causing a feedback loop.


This is my understanding anyway, please correct me if magnetic db pickups still feedback. That would scupper my plans entirely!

[zero9]

I'm not here to scupper your plans
I've got a resonator bass (hollowbody) fitted with a mag pup, which feeds back like a m****rf*****r.

I agree, that different strings / pups / DB's / playing styles / amps / speakers / rooms / etc and any combination thereof will give different results. That's why it's trial and error. Electric basses don't feed back because of the solid body, unless you get really close to the amp. Don't be fooled into thinking that a magnetic pup will cure the feedback without resorting to other measures as well.

Edited March 13, 2012 by zero9

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='zero9' timestamp='1331665657' post='1576912']
I'm not here to scupper your plans
I've got a resonator bass (hollowbody) fitted with a mag pup, which feeds back like a m****rf*****r.

I agree, that different strings / pups / DB's / playing styles / amps / speakers / rooms / etc and any combination thereof will give different results. That's why it's trial and error. Electric basses don't feed back because of the solid body, unless you get really close to the amp. Don't be fooled into thinking that a magnetic pup will cure the feedback without resorting to other measures as well.
[/quote]

Balls.

now you have said that of course i have seen acoustic basses feed back with magnetic pickups. i guess i was being a little hasty in expecting to find a simple solution.

that said, a mag should be a lot more feedback resistant than piezo right?? a piezo is pretty much designed to pick up vibration but a mag is easier to tame?

[Thurbs]

Why not go IEM? You need a pre-amp with 2 outputs, a headphone amp and some headphones... feedback problem gone and for much less than a set of strings.

[fatback]

The mag will hugely increase the volume you can play at without feedback. I'd be amazed if it didn't solve your problem.

No harm at all though trying to understand the source of the trouble. Was the bass in the foldback mix? How far away from your bass was your cab? Was it pointing straight at you? Are you close to the drums? etc etc.

You can ask would a different piezzo give you the same trouble? Would raising the can help? Would notching the frequency out fix it etc. Then worry about beachballs or IEM.

You can experiment with most of these things at home or in a practice.

Edited March 14, 2012 by fatback

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1331723323' post='1577624']
The mag will hugely increase the volume you can play at without feedback. I'd be amazed if it didn't solve your problem.

No harm at all though trying to understand the source of the trouble. Was the bass in the foldback mix? How far away from your bass was your cab? Was it pointing straight at you? Are you close to the drums? etc etc.

You can ask would a different piezzo give you the same trouble? Would raising the can help? Would notching the frequency out fix it etc. Then worry about beachballs or IEM.

You can experiment with most of these things at home or in a practice.
[/quote]

Oddly the feedback isn't affected by the usual suspects. It's just there beyond a certain (low) level of master volume. I think it's the old BP100 to be honest. When fixed to underside of bridge which is much flatter, feedback was much further away, but tone only acceptable with extreme eq'ing. I'm going to try some sanding and glue gun action to see if that helps and probably go for the armstrong magnetic pup too. Had an email response from him and it seems a great deal, very Friendly too. Can't believe he can do a custom job for 90 bones.