Metal bassists - What sort of tones are you using?

[spiderjazz]

I'm trying to dial in and fine tune a metal bass tone for live and recording use. I'm normally tuned in drop C (CGCF) and play with a plectrum. The stuff I play is gonna have lots of kick drums and downtuned guitars, so I want to make sure that I'm keeping the lowend punchy and not muddy. I like a bit of grit in it as well to ensure the bass is audible and not just "felt" since metal mixes are pretty dense and tracks can get lost easily. I have a clip of a tone that I have at the moment, it's with my overwater and axe fx. It's basically an Ampeg model providing the clean tone, and a dual rectifier providing the grit. Any feedback on it would be great.

[url="http://soundcloud.com/spiderjazz/distortedbass3"]http://soundcloud.com/spiderjazz/distortedbass3[/url]

What gear/techniques are the rest of you using to get your metal tones, and what would you consider the qualities needed for a good bass tone?

[Lozz196]

Far prefer the tone on distortedbass3 to that of distortedbass2. Not really "up" on newer dropped tuning sounds from a user point of view, but no.3 sounded great to me.

[spiderjazz]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1331501315' post='1573907']
Far prefer the tone on distortedbass3 to that of distortedbass2. Not really "up" on newer dropped tuning sounds from a user point of view, but no.3 sounded great to me.
[/quote]

Thanks for listening. For the distorted bass 2, I was using a compressed DI along with the dirty signal, and I think there was an overlap in the low mids between both of them which muddied them up. Switched to an Ampeg SVT and 8x10 setup for the clean on Distorted Bass 3, gave a better lowend and took some mids out which let the dirty signal fill it out better.

[tommorichards]

yeah, id have to say distortedbass 3 sounded better

[thodrik]

It really depends on the tone you are looking for, the style of the band, and how anything you record is going to mixed. You could have the greatest most cutting bass sound ever but if you decide to mix it like ...And Justice For All, then it doesn't really matter. From experience, if the guitarists are also downtuned, using an amp like the dual rectifier with a big scooped eq, and the drums are using obscenely massive sounding triggers, it can be hard to get a bass to cut through.

Being honest I prefer the no 2. I just don't like the blend personally, its like two different bass sounds with each sound fighting against the other. I prefer something that just sounds a bit more cohesive, though I'm pretty old fashioned. With no 2 (even number 3) the grit might actually get lost in the guitar mix so anything you hear might just be the clean part. Both good sounds. Maybe no 2 for some kind of bass intro to a song, but number 3 would work better in a mix.

No right or wrong answer really. Personally for any 'metal' metal with lots of double kick drums I would use a fairly clean sound verging on gritty, based on some kind of emulation of a valve amp being cranked, or failing that a valve amp being cranked. Then get somebody to mix it so the that the bass is heard.

[Ou7shined]

We use CGCF(AD) tuning too although our sound (stoner/sludge) has a more organic less frantic vibe to it than yours. I find myself cutting back a little more top end than I used to these days in order to occupy my space in the spectrum. What gauge strings are you using. Ive settled at 125s. I've found they give you that fat open C without the compliance of other gauges not meant for drop C tuning.

I'd choose No3 btw.

[chrismuzz]

I like the sound, a lot! The Rectifier always sounds great on bass. I'd probably opt for an even more clanky initial attack sound on the clean blend, but thats literally a personal thing, and if i was to use it in one of my current bands

[spiderjazz]

Thanks for all the comments!

[quote name='tommorichards' timestamp='1331502574' post='1573944']
yeah, id have to say distortedbass 3 sounded better
[/quote]

Thanks

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1331502793' post='1573951']
It really depends on the tone you are looking for, the style of the band, and how anything you record is going to mixed. You could have the greatest most cutting bass sound ever but if you decide to mix it like ...And Justice For All, then it doesn't really matter. From experience, if the guitarists are also downtuned, using an amp like the dual rectifier with a big scooped eq, and the drums are using obscenely massive sounding triggers, it can be hard to get a bass to cut through.

Being honest I prefer the no 2. I just don't like the blend personally, its like two different bass sounds with each sound fighting against the other. I prefer something that just sounds a bit more cohesive, though I'm pretty old fashioned. With no 2 (even number 3) the grit might actually get lost in the guitar mix so anything you hear might just be the clean part. Both good sounds. Maybe no 2 for some kind of bass intro to a song, but number 3 would work better in a mix.

No right or wrong answer really. Personally for any 'metal' metal with lots of double kick drums I would use a fairly clean sound verging on gritty, based on some kind of emulation of a valve amp being cranked, or failing that a valve amp being cranked. Then get somebody to mix it so the that the bass is heard.
[/quote]

Well I'll be mixing any recordings of it myself, so it's gonna be a case of trying to find a balance between that and the guitars. What I'm looking for in a bass tone is something that will glue everything together, so I want to leave a space in the mids for the guitars to shine through, and let the bass nearly totally cover the low end (below 200hz) and have a bit of grit in the mids to help it sit with the guitars and fill out the sound.

I've tried running pedals in front of the amp sim, but I've found it effecting the low end too much, either by taking away the punch from it, or muddying up the low end. I get what you're saying about it sounding disjointed though, it doesn't sound like one cohesive sound. Hopefully the grit will blend in with the guitars in a mix and won't be noticeable.

I must try and work with the amp sim a bit more and add some more drive via that and see how it sounds.

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1331504403' post='1573988']
We use CGCF(AD) tuning too although our sound (stoner/sludge) has a more organic less frantic vibe to it than yours. I find myself cutting back a little more top end than I used to these days in order to occupy my space in the spectrum. What gauge strings are you using. Ive settled at 125s. I've found they give you that fat open C without the compliance of other gauges not meant for drop C tuning.

I'd choose No3 btw.
[/quote]

I'd probably low pass it a bit harder in a recording as well, I think its cut around 9k at the moment, but it could easily go to 8k without losing anything too important.

It's got the strings it came with on at the moment, so it's drop D with what I'm gonna guess are nickel 105's. I'm planning on ordering a Daddario Prosteel 5 string set at 130, and using the B, A, D and G strings. I think this should give the most even tension across the neck.

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1331505226' post='1574004']
I like the sound, a lot! The Rectifier always sounds great on bass. I'd probably opt for an even more clanky initial attack sound on the clean blend, but thats literally a personal thing, and if i was to use it in one of my current bands
[/quote]

I'm getting some prosteels for her so hopefully I should get a bit more clank that way. I could try adding some more presence as well though to help bring it out.

[Truckstop]

I used a GK 400RB in my old band (myspace.com/purenegative (The Return and The Cider Complex are my recordings)) which had plenty of grit in it already. Other than a pretty heavey fingerstyle, completely clean.
I find, if the guitars are that distorted, and the drums are that huge, clean bass is the way to go. I've never ever heard a 'metul' band that's managed to get a sweet fuzz/distorted tone cut through live or recorded. It just seems to blend in at the frequencies where the guitars leave off. Listen to bands like Lamb of God (especially New American Gospel) and Necrophagist and the bass tone is almost completely clean, and more to the point, sounds hella aggressive, raw and totally cuts through. There's something about someone shredding the hell out of a clean bass that just sounds epic! I'd work at getting a great clean tone before adding any fuzz or distortion effects.
Having said that though, dist. 3 does sound sweet... but does it work with everything else?

Truckstop

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='spiderjazz' timestamp='1331507226' post='1574057']
I'm getting some prosteels for her so hopefully I should get a bit more clank that way. I could try adding some more presence as well though to help bring it out.
[/quote]

I love steels presence is good, but can add hiss... and can also make slight imperfections in technique stand out LOADS. Something I've battled with tirelessly! Sounds great as is though, I bet in a band mix that tone would destroy \m/

[jazseven]

[quote name='spiderjazz' timestamp='1331507226' post='1574057']
... let the bass nearly totally cover the low end (below 200hz) and have a bit of grit in the mids ....
[/quote]

from personal experience everything below 70hz is just inaudible space being filled and can make stuff a bit, for lack of a better word, 'muddier' than it could otherwise be, i normally have a boost from 100-200hz but roll off almost everything below 80 and let the kick drum have some of that space (as it makes all the difference between a kick sounding triggered or tight and punchy). i also generally have a peak around 400hz and another somewhere between 1k and 2.5k and the roll off most of the topp from about 3-4k but not as steeply as I do at the bass end.

my basses are both pretty mid heavy though so what works for me may not work for you

you also have to bear in mind that even if your bass sounds MOTHER-FRICKING-AMAZING on it's own it may not (and in my experience it doesn't) work in the mix. More often than not when we're nearing the end of the mixing process I'll listen to the bass solo'd and be utterly amazed at how bad it sounds on its own, yet stick guitars, vocals and kit in there and it fits perfectly.

Also when using a lot of distortion you'll get a way 'bigger' sound with less saturation/fizz and something a bit more overdrivey... and it should help the bass stand out more in a live situation as all that fizz will most probably just get lost in all the guitars and cymbals

thats about all the advice i can give you, hopefully [i]some[/i] of will be of some use

Jaz

[jazseven]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1331508082' post='1574070']
I find, if the guitars are that distorted, and the drums are that huge, clean bass is the way to go. I've never ever heard a 'metul' band that's managed to get a sweet fuzz/distorted tone cut through live or recorded. It just seems to blend in at the frequencies where the guitars leave off. Listen to bands like Lamb of God (especially New American Gospel) and Necrophagist and the bass tone is almost completely clean, and more to the point, sounds hella aggressive, raw and totally cuts through. There's something about someone shredding the hell out of a clean bass that just sounds epic! I'd work at getting a great clean tone before adding any fuzz or distortion effects.
[/quote]

+1



[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1331508082' post='1574070']

Having said that though, dist. 3 does sound sweet... but does it work with everything else?

[/quote]

+100

[spiderjazz]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1331508082' post='1574070']
I used a GK 400RB in my old band (myspace.com/purenegative (The Return and The Cider Complex are my recordings)) which had plenty of grit in it already. Other than a pretty heavey fingerstyle, completely clean.
I find, if the guitars are that distorted, and the drums are that huge, clean bass is the way to go. I've never ever heard a 'metul' band that's managed to get a sweet fuzz/distorted tone cut through live or recorded. It just seems to blend in at the frequencies where the guitars leave off. Listen to bands like Lamb of God (especially New American Gospel) and Necrophagist and the bass tone is almost completely clean, and more to the point, sounds hella aggressive, raw and totally cuts through. There's something about someone shredding the hell out of a clean bass that just sounds epic! I'd work at getting a great clean tone before adding any fuzz or distortion effects.
Having said that though, dist. 3 does sound sweet... but does it work with everything else?

Truckstop
[/quote]

I've been listening to a couple of isolated bass tracks, and they do seem cleaner than I would have imagined. I have the producers edition of Sacrament, and John Campbells tone is very clean. A tone I quite like is Rex Browns, which is dirty but seems to be more of an overdrive than full on distortion [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ8rg3S3vpI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ8rg3S3vpI[/url]
I think I'm gonna record a short clip tomorrow with guitars and drums, and try out a couple of different tones in the mix.

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1331509252' post='1574082']
I love steels presence is good, but can add hiss... and can also make slight imperfections in technique stand out LOADS. Something I've battled with tirelessly! Sounds great as is though, I bet in a band mix that tone would destroy \m/
[/quote]

I'm gonna try mixing it with more instruments soon and see how it turns out!

[quote name='jazseven' timestamp='1331509501' post='1574084']
from personal experience everything below 70hz is just inaudible space being filled and can make stuff a bit, for lack of a better word, 'muddier' than it could otherwise be, i normally have a boost from 100-200hz but roll off almost everything below 80 and let the kick drum have some of that space (as it makes all the difference between a kick sounding triggered or tight and punchy). i also generally have a peak around 400hz and another somewhere between 1k and 2.5k and the roll off most of the topp from about 3-4k but not as steeply as I do at the bass end.

my basses are both pretty mid heavy though so what works for me may not work for you

you also have to bear in mind that even if your bass sounds MOTHER-FRICKING-AMAZING on it's own it may not (and in my experience it doesn't) work in the mix. More often than not when we're nearing the end of the mixing process I'll listen to the bass solo'd and be utterly amazed at how bad it sounds on its own, yet stick guitars, vocals and kit in there and it fits perfectly.

Also when using a lot of distortion you'll get a way 'bigger' sound with less saturation/fizz and something a bit more overdrivey... and it should help the bass stand out more in a live situation as all that fizz will most probably just get lost in all the guitars and cymbals

thats about all the advice i can give you, hopefully [i]some[/i] of will be of some use

Jaz
[/quote]

I normally roll off from around 50-60hz in a recording, and take a dip out where the kick hits, but I haven't put an filter on the "clean" track in the clip above, might throw one on at the end so make sure it catches all the low rumble. I could lose some of the fizziness alright, so I'll try low passing lower than I am. I think I have the gain at nearly 0 on the recto model, no shortage of gain on it

No doubt about judging the whole mix rather than the individual tracks, I've recently started banning myself from using the solo button while mixing

I was messing around with using a big muff model and a rat before but wasn't too happy with the result, I need to give it another go though.

Thanks for all the tips.

[jazseven]

Modded ibanez tubescreamers are worth a look at for really aggressive overdrive. Only thing I use on the overdrive/distortion front. Never been a fan of bass specific fuzz pedals

[jazseven]

If I get round to it i'll stick up some recordings of my studio tones side by side with my live tones tomorrow

Edited March 12, 2012 by jazseven

[chrismuzz]

Marshall Jackhammer pedals are also amazing on bass. Anything from a nice warm overdrive to full on rage! Incredibly versatile with its 2 band EQ and contour/freq knobs... Very cheap too! I actually got mine given to me for free I use mine after a Sansamp Bass Driver for maximum filth

Also the Bass Big Muff... I don't think much to the sound on its own, but in a band mix it always goes down well, especially when playing old Metallica choons \m/

[spiderjazz]

[quote name='jazseven' timestamp='1331516069' post='1574147']
Modded ibanez tubescreamers are worth a look at for really aggressive overdrive. Only thing I use on the overdrive/distortion front. Never been a fan of bass specific fuzz pedals
[/quote]

I have an 808 in the signal chain before the dual rec in the clip above, maybe I just need to drop the dual rec

[quote name='jazseven' timestamp='1331516273' post='1574151']
If I get round to it i'll stick up some recordings of my studio tones side by side with my live tones tomorrow
[/quote]

That'd be great, thanks.

[charic]

I'm using clean signal myself at the moment.

One guitarist and programmed drums. I found it just allows me to stick out that little bit more. Also I've found newtone strings to be an absolute godsend. They make me custom sets of strings especially for drop C tuning.

I'll have a listen to the recordings when I get a mo but so much of it depends on the guitarists really.

If you want to hear my particular sound then follow the link below

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1331547167' post='1574358']
I'm using clean signal myself at the moment....
[/quote]

Me too although I use a Blowtorch when I want to turn it up to 11.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1331547167' post='1574358']
... I Also I've found newtone strings to be an absolute godsend. They make me custom sets of strings especially for drop C tuning....[/quote]

Oooh nice find. I had a look on their webby but there's not much info on them. How much is it for a 4 string custom set?

Edited March 12, 2012 by Ou7shined

[shizznit]

I haven't had a metal/rock set up for many years, but once upon a time I was a metal bass player. I used to use Warwick Quad 6 amps which were nice and crunchy and growly when cranked, but I also liked to switch between clean and crunchy. As there was no way of doing that via a channel footswitch I used to run the amps clean and used a DOD Bass Overdrive with the wet/dry at 25% bias to the dry signal and the drive at 50%. That gave me a really nice crunchy undertone when I wanted to dig in and give the bass good ol' fashioned hiding! Finger style or pick, it sounded awesome and it really cut through.

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1331517993' post='1574155']
Marshall Jackhammer pedals are also amazing on bass.
[/quote]

+1 I had one a few years back and sounded amazing.

[charic]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1331548379' post='1574382']
Me too although I use a Blowtorch when I want to turn it up to 11.



Oooh nice find. I had a look on their webby but there's not much info on them. How much is it for a 4 string custom set?
[/quote]

With custom sets of strings you have to order a minimum of two sets. I think it works out around £48 for two sets IIRC. Bulk ordering cuts it down too. All this used to be on their website but I can't find it now!

[Musicman20]

I've never been a big fan of heavily detuning a 4 string bass....much prefer a 5 string for those lower notes, plus it means normal strings, normal (ish) tuning, no nuts to file, etc. But, I can see why people want to do it.

I agree with the above regarding clean tone. Give it a try...some growl on a bass from a Sansamp can sound wonderful, but if everything is heavily saturated in high gain, I tend to lose what is going on.

If the guitarist were aiming for a more rock n roll grit (like QOTSA) then distorted bass sounds great because the guitars are less crunchy...relying more on tubes breaking up than full on high gain modern distortion.

Even though I grew up with some fairly 'heavy' linfluences, my heart was always in punk rock, Modern punk still has the aggressive mid scooped guitars with quite high gain, but there seems to be much more room for bass because they don't tend to detune as much. I think this is why I have never played in a proper heavy band.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1331549338' post='1574412']
With custom sets of strings you have to order a minimum of two sets. I think it works out around £48 for two sets IIRC. Bulk ordering cuts it down too. All this used to be on their website but I can't find it now!
[/quote]

Cheers.

[charic]

No problem

[spiderjazz]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1331547167' post='1574358']
I'm using clean signal myself at the moment.

One guitarist and programmed drums. I found it just allows me to stick out that little bit more. Also I've found newtone strings to be an absolute godsend. They make me custom sets of strings especially for drop C tuning.

I'll have a listen to the recordings when I get a mo but so much of it depends on the guitarists really.

If you want to hear my particular sound then follow the link below
[/quote]

Good stuff man, the bass does sit nicely in that while still being audible. Did you record an amp and process afterwards or is it a DI? I do the one man guitarist/bassist/drum programmer as well, here's a quick clip of what my bass tone was like with my old bass, an Ibanez SRX500 [url="http://soundcloud.com/spiderjazz/samuel-l"]http://soundcloud.com/spiderjazz/samuel-l[/url] I'm looking to get a bit more thump and attack out of my tone though, so hence this thread