Passive/active thoughts

[clauster]

I've never had an active bass, but recently I'm starting to fancy active pickups with passive eq (just for the lower noise and ability to drive cable runs and effects).

My brother on the other hand wouldn't be without active eq.

My bass does nothing for him tone wise and vice versa.

Horses for courses I guess.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='174368' date='Apr 11 2008, 09:42 AM']Alex, I've been told that Alembic pickups aren't active (at least according to John East who has had a play with my Activators). Apparently they're designed passive but very low impedance.[/quote]
I've got an Alembic with signature electronics, it does take a battery, but I don't know whether that defines it as active?
What I do know is that through a good valve pre it has a phenomenal guts and weight to the sound that I have not encountered on any other bass. I use my Jazz when a certain sound is required and thats great in its own right, I would like a Precision to cover the spectrum, the Alembic does everything else.
So I think the Alembic is active and if so it's amazing.
Jake

[cheddatom]

Apparently my schecter with EMGs has passive pickups but 18v active EQ. I don't really understand, I just like the sound of it.

I would love to install a passive switch, but I don't know if this is possible/easy?

[matty589]

The poster about Warwicks is spot-on, which is why I am glad most circuits have a pull-passive, I prefer both of mine bypassing the circuitry. Actually a high-quality full-range passive pickup in a balanced-sounding bass is best to my ears - If you have a good even hi-fi amp you can eq to suit and the eq from a good recording setup will be far more transparent than any onboard eq. In all the basses I have played and owned the active circuit seems to add headroom at the expense of purity and variety of sound. I think it is also worth mentioning that you can get a lot more of variety of tone with your hands! I recently read a Jonas Hellborg interview in Bass Player where he was talking about his signature bass and amp. He said that onboard eq never works because it runs on 9 or 18v batteries - nowhere near powerful enough to provide the headroom and frequency response of a good mains-powered eq. New strings, changed more often, also reduce the need to play with eq so much as well. One of my favourite players is Anthony Jackson, and his bass has one full-range passive pickup wired directly to the output jack. Nothing wrong with his tone! I just have to convince someone to build something similar for less than £10K

[GreeneKing]

[quote]which is why I am glad most circuits have a pull-passive,[/quote]

I'm not so sure that's an accurate reflection on things. One of my active basses has an active/passive switch, out of about 14.

I sense some confusion between active pickups and active basses. Most of my basses are active and none of them have active pickups.

As I understand it, the signal from an active pickup is enhanced by the use of a power supply and this signal is led to either a pre amp in the bass or one somewhere else.

Once pedals and effects are added into the signal path the whole active/passive subtlety surely becomes slightly incidental?

So powered basses, is this the way ahead, get rid of the battery and get some stable and more powerful watts in there?

Peter

Edited April 11, 2008 by GreeneKing

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='174511' date='Apr 11 2008, 01:25 PM']So powered basses, is this the way ahead, get rid of the battery and get some stable and more powerful watts in there?

Peter[/quote]
EBS amps will power a 9V active through phantom power and stereo jack. Not much use for 18V but it is a neat trick.

[matty589]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='174511' date='Apr 11 2008, 01:25 PM']I'm not so sure that's an accurate reflection on things. One of my active basses has an active/passive switch, out of about 14.

I sense some confusion between active pickups and active basses. Most of my basses are active and none of them have active pickups.

As I understand it, the signal from an active pickup is enhanced by the use of a power supply and this signal is led to either a pre amp in the bass or one somewhere else.

Peter[/quote]
If the pickup is passive and you can bypass an active circuit the bass will still work without a battery. If the pickup is active a battery is needed. It is an accurate reflection for the bass I mentioned (I wasn't talking about all basses).

[BigRedX]

We had a similar discussion about a year ago...

IMO there's only a few things that an active bass can offer that can't be replicated by a decent set of controls on your amp:

1. Give you more control over your sound at you fingertips. However how many of us do fiddle with the controls as were playing? Even on the basses I have with complex pre-amp systems I tend to set the knobs to give me the sound I want and then leave them alone. The knobs are useful for getting to the right sound but after that they might as well be fixed resistors. The only exceptions are the master volume and occasionally the pickup balance. That's equally true for passive basses as well.

2. If your amp or other items in your signal chain need a hot output. Having said that my Gus G3 passive bass is far louder than almost every other active or passive bass I've played.

3. If your active circuit gives you something the tone controls on your amp and/or effects doesn't. The prime example of this is the ACG Filter Pre-amp which for me is the only on-board electronics that actually provide me with something that the rest of my signal chain can't.

On the whole for me most built-in active circuits offer little that can't be achieved somewhere else in the signal chain. The problem is that these circuits have limitations on them in that they need to be able to fit into the control cavity of the bass and be powered by 1 or 2 9v batteries both of which will require some compromises in the design when you compare them with what can be achieved when you have the space and power supply of your amp to play with.

Having said that there's no overall right answer. For me the actives have to be tailored to the bass they're fitted to. They work best when designed to enhance the natural sound of the instrument rather than try impose an alien character on it. That's why the ACG amp works so well because to filters can be tuned in the enhance what's already there and make it even more wonderful.

[matty589]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='174511' date='Apr 11 2008, 01:25 PM']As I understand it, the signal from an active pickup is enhanced by the use of a power supply and this signal is led to either a pre amp in the bass or one somewhere else.

Peter[/quote]
An active pickup requires a battery to function, not to enhance it. You can record a passive bass directly through the Hi-Z input of a high quality soundcard into a computer and there is effectively no preamp involved, just the jacks, whatever resisitors are between the jack and the ADC to provide the correct repsonse and an A-D converter (assuming there is no fancy wiring through preamp circuitry in the soundcard). Bearing in mind that speakers, software, amp heads and even our ears are preamps then that is about as pure as one is likely to get

[GreeneKing]

Good post BigRedX and your comments about the ACG pre are wholeheartedly +1'd. Do you have ACG EQ01's or 02's?

This thread has certainly helped me straighten the whole thing in my head and the issue is about the quality of the pre-amp in the bass given the inherent limitations of power supply and space/weigh issues.

[quote]It is an accurate reflection for the bass I mentioned (I wasn't talking about all basses).[/quote]

I believe you



Peter

[alexclaber]

[quote name='matty589' post='174501' date='Apr 11 2008, 01:10 PM']One of my favourite players is Anthony Jackson, and his bass has one full-range passive pickup wired directly to the output jack. Nothing wrong with his tone! I just have to convince someone to build something similar for less than £10K [/quote]

Speak to Robbie @ RIM Custom Basses! My RIM Custom 5 was inspired by AJ's signature Fodera in a number of ways - 36" scale, chambered body, full-range passive pickups (two in this case plus a 4-way switch). In retrospect I didn't need the volume and tone pots but I doubt I'm losing much treble through them. It sounds ridiculously awesome and plays really well!

Alex

[alexclaber]

From Shuker's website:

"All circuits are 18volt systems, battery life is dependent on the preamp selected. There are three different preamp chips, all have their own characters. The standard chip is a low current op amp that is used in the majority of active circuits on the market. Its main advantage is the battery life, which can last up to 6 months. The midrange chip has a satisfactory battery life, usually around three months or so but has huge improvements in performance, frequency response and clarity. the top spec chip has quite a high current consumption, batteries wil last for around 4-6 weeks, more suited to studio work and digital recording, one of the highest quality preamps available."

Would be interesting to see what the exact chips are that tend to be used and then compare them to the chips found in heads and rack preamps.

I believe Alembic offers 36V phantom powered onboard electronics as well as their usual battery powered systems.

Alex

[tauzero]

[quote name='matty589' post='174501' date='Apr 11 2008, 01:10 PM']I recently read a Jonas Hellborg interview in Bass Player where he was talking about his signature bass and amp. He said that onboard eq never works because it runs on 9 or 18v batteries - nowhere near powerful enough to provide the headroom and frequency response of a good mains-powered eq.[/quote]
I really don't understand that. If you're using a 9V supply then theoretically you could put out around 8V peak-to-peak which is well above what a live level input is, let alone an average pickup output. And what has voltage to do with frequency response? It sounds like utter bollocks but of course I could be wrong.

[danlea]

[quote name='tauzero' post='174438' date='Apr 11 2008, 11:43 AM']...all my experiments with the Precision taught me that actually basses all sound the same.[/quote]

Ok, there's definitely some heresy going on in this topic, but I'm going to assume the above comment was made with tongue buried firmly in cheek! I can't imagine my post will be read by many people after all this, but here's my current opinion (and this is of course subject to change once I get my Marcus Miller jazz with active/passive switch):

Primarily this issue is about the quality and nature of the preamp. I disagree with a previous description of the passive sound as being 'direct' and the active sound as being 'over-engineered', not because of the intention of the explanation, but purely due to the wording. If you wanted to hear exactly what would be going on in the pickup itself before you've done anything to it, you'd want an 'ideal' operational amplifier - one with infinite input impedance and zero output impedance. Of course such a device doesn't exist, but in any case that's probably not what you're after. An active pass is closer to this situation than a passive bass due to the short length of cabling to the preamp for starters, and I would say (partly for this reason) that and active bass has a very 'direct' sound.

Now a good percentage of the bass playing population will talk about pure valve pathways, and this due to the fact that the electronics attached to a pickup also interact with it and affect the signal that is drawn from it, even before you've done any processing (e.g. equalisation). Valves interact differently with pickups than solid state electronics do, and this is why I like to have a valve as the first piece of active electronics after my pickup. You can't very well put a properly driven valve in your bass guitar now can you! Of course putting any signal through a valve will alter it, and a lot of the character of valve electronics arises due to this, rather than through what I've just been talking about.

Or alternatively, this kind of sh*t might be largely irrelevant, and it might be due to the different makeup of pickups designed for active or passive basses. Experimentation required I believe...

[alexclaber]

[quote name='tauzero' post='174592' date='Apr 11 2008, 03:02 PM']I really don't understand that. If you're using a 9V supply then theoretically you could put out around 8V peak-to-peak which is well above what a live level input is, let alone an average pickup output.[/quote]

I bet that's fine for buffering a passive pickup or bringing an active pickup up to a good level. However with all of these EQ circuits having over 10dB of EQ boost available I can't imagine these systems having sufficient headroom to handle loud notes cleanly when the EQ is heavily boosted - I know my Aguilar preamp can't, even on 18V and that's one of the nicer preamps available.

Alex

[lowdown]

I have a Agi 3 band pre-amp in my Rim Bass...
which now days i use very little [pre-amp].Maybe a little treble boost for a more hi-fi slap tone.
My pups have a very high output..
and in passive mode there is no tone control at all...[Just twiddle my amp , or my DI box]
But i have a sound a like...
Plenty of meat and warmth ,
I use heavy strings with a high action..
Which i think helps give me a more fatter sound...
I always go for the same tone...

What i am saying really is that if you are going for lots
of different tones...a pre-amp is a must.
But i also wonder how much is comming from your fingers....?
or should be....

Saying all that , i love the active sound from my old Stingray....

Garry

[cheddatom]

If you want a load of different sounds, I don't think an onboard pre-amp is best. I certainly can't play and twiddle knobs at the same time! IMO you should use pedals, or pedal switchable pres/amps for lots of different sounds.

[lowdown]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='174639' date='Apr 11 2008, 03:56 PM']IMO you should use pedals, or pedal switchable pres/amps for lots of different sounds.[/quote]

Blimey.... a pedal for every different tone....
I would then be having lesson's from Fred Astaire ..
Instead of a Bass tutor....

Garry

[cheddatom]

[quote name='lowdown' post='174659' date='Apr 11 2008, 04:21 PM']Blimey.... a pedal for every different tone....
I would then be having lesson's from Fred Astaire ..
Instead of a Bass tutor....

Garry[/quote]

Or 1 multi effects pedal storing every different tone.

I'm not saying you can't choose different tones from different playing styles. I play with my fingers, a thumb pick, my thumb and my nails - but I still gig with 20 odd pedals.

It might be a bit extreme, but say you have a chorus where you want loads of low end or the like. You can start playing closer to the neck, and play with your fingers etc etc, but you may not have the tone you actually want until you boost the bass on your on-board pre. To do that you have to move like superman, or miss some notes, so get an EQ pedal instead. It makes sense to me anyway.

[lowhand_mike]

certainly alot of my 'tone' shaping comes from my fingers but i do twiddle the EQ a bit on stage not during a song though, but thats just to and or remove top end really, maybe adjust the pickup balance from front to back (2 soapbars) and playing over the neck or bridge pickup changes the sound more and quicker than fiddling with the EQ. though the active EQ does allow playing over the bridge pickup without boosting too much if at all. then shifting to the neck pup gives a full deep tone, like having 2 basses in one.

[lowdown]

Yo Lowhand-mike...
I see you are from Bexleyheath..
I am from Erith , well decades ago..
Just moved over from Plumstead to Essex...


Garry

[BigRedX]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='174536' date='Apr 11 2008, 02:02 PM']Good post BigRedX and your comments about the ACG pre are wholeheartedly +1'd. Do you have ACG EQ01's or 02's?[/quote]

I have ACG EQ01's -the two filter stacks give the pan control something more to do! I'm seriously considering putting an EQ02 in my fretless Active Gus at the moment (if I can work out that there's enough room for it)


[quote name='danlea' post='174605' date='Apr 11 2008, 03:12 PM']You can't very well put a properly driven valve in your bass guitar now can you![/quote]

[url="http://www.bas-extravaganza.nl/?page=bassen&BassenID=14"]Bas Extravaganza Tube 12AX7[/url]

[GreeneKing]

The 02 is quite tiny. I put one in a non Fender Jazz (Allparts?) body this week and had to mod the wood a little. The one in my rear routed Warmoth P has oodles of room.

Peter

[BigRedX]

If I do it I'll be going for the 3K version. The problem isn't so much the space, but the fact that the access to the control cavity is only 44mm in diameter. I think there's room for the board, it's whether I can actually get it in there in the first place. The Gus active circuit is built on a circular board that fills this circular space completely. Also I can't definitely check it fits without removing the old circuit, something I don't want to do unless I'm definitely going to fit the ACG... Catch 22!

[Jase]

Passive for me, I tried active once, on a Fender Deluxe Jazz not my thing at all but I have to say the pick ups sounded really hot with plenty of tonal scope. I tend to stick with the same sort of tone most of the time.