KiOgon Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Did anyone see the David Attenborough series Natural World prog tonight? Amazing Lemurs & their habitat being destroyed by illegal logging, it made me feel guilty in a way for having fretboards at all! Turned out most of the timber was going to China but also to Gibson USA. Well worth checking it out on iplayer. Cheerz, John EDIT: Link added, [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01dlcgk/Natural_World_20112012_Madagascar_Lemurs_and_Spies/"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01dlcgk/Natural_World_20112012_Madagascar_Lemurs_and_Spies/[/url] Edited March 16, 2012 by KiOgon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Guess you heard about Gibson getting bummed for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary mac Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I thought the Gibson man looked very shifty and appeared to be lying like a cheap rug. That might just have been his manner though and I could be treating him far too harshly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 No, I missed this. Will have a look at it online this weekend. I hope Gibson were simply ignorant when they purchased the woods - it's saddening to imagine people knowingly contributing to this level of destruction. And in the name of what, a frigging fingerboard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1331893083' post='1580429']I hope Gibson were simply ignorant when they purchased the woods ...[/quote] Falsified paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Thanks for sharing , and I hope lots of people watch this. Link here [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b01dlcgk/"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b01dlcgk/[/url] It is a major problem and has been a major reason (along with labour rates) why basses are so cheap these days. I am always ranting about it but many either don't know about these problems or simply don't care ? Maybe there should be a scheme where basses and guitars come with a certification that they only contain legal, sustainable wood. I would be interested in looking into how this could be achieved if anyone has any ideas ? As regards the guy from Gibson I can see both sides of the story. If you buy from an intermediary you have to take it on trust if they produce documentation that the sources are legitimate. I am sure many builders / luthiers could be embarrassed if taken to task on this issue. One of the reasons I try to utilise woods such as Ash, Elm, Oak and Maple as much as possible. Hopefully I am OK as I only buy my wood stock from John Boddy Timber these days and they have an excellent reputation with regard to sustainable sources. [url="http://www.john-boddy-timber.ltd.uk/certification.htm"]http://www.john-bodd...rtification.htm[/url] Edited March 16, 2012 by Prosebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If Gibson were the villains of the show (and without wanting to cast stones unfairly I did think the CEO looked very shifty and uncomfortable under questioning), then the lemurs were most certainly the stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1331893238' post='1580434'] Falsified paperwork. [/quote] Theirs or the suppliers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Wasn't just Gibson..... but because of who gibson are.... they have been chased after by the Authorities..... to be made an example of. There were a lot of Chinese manufacturers on that documentation too... but because they all have funny names that we do not recognise, it's not so much if an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 In other news. That Eric dude was annoying. Good work, but annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiOgon Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1331898137' post='1580553'] In other news. That Eric dude was annoying. Good work, but annoying. [/quote] You think he was annoying! What about Henry Schmuckbucket, I mean [color=#1C2837][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=3]Henry Juszkiewicz[/size][/font][/color] [color=#FFFFFF][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=4]Henry Juszkiewicz [/size][/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1331898824' post='1580567'] You think he was annoying! What about Henry Schmuckbucket, I mean [color=#1C2837][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=3]Henry Juszkiewicz[/size][/font][/color] [color=#FFFFFF][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif]Henry Juszkiewicz [/font][/color] [/quote] I least Henry didn't imitate accents to try and help us understand him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1331894135' post='1580466'] Wasn't just Gibson..... but because of who gibson are.... they have been chased after by the Authorities..... to be made an example of. There were a lot of Chinese manufacturers on that documentation too... but because they all have funny names that we do not recognise, it's not so much if an issue. [/quote] Gibson were done under American law, the Lacey Act, American law doesn't apply to Chinese manufacturers, as much as they like to think it does, big difference between acting legally, but indifferent to morals of other countries/cultures, and acting illegally and immorally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1331899174' post='1580579'] Also was there not something about the wood being legal if it was a certain size or worked on in it's native country but because they were finishing it in the States made it illegal. [/quote] I can believe this. I've bought Sonokling rosewood (from plantations established by the Dutch on the island of Java) via a UK dealer. The boards which were 2" thick had glue remnants on some edges. I asked the guy if it was reclaimed, and he said that it's a way round the strict export rules. There are restrictions on how much raw timber can be exported, but pre-made furniture can go out in greater quantities. They knock up 'farmhouse' tables, export them, then break them apart in the UK/wherever and sell as raw boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Also possibly of interest is a statement from the dude who ships the Sonokling Rosewood and Macassar Ebony from Indonesia: "Rosewood – all trees are cut manually, using power chain saws only. There is virtually no other mechanisation, which essentially maintains the entire forest. The trees themselves are fairly old, the younger trees are left untouched. This means in practice maybe 1 tree in 50 or 60 is suitable for cutting. The villagers that live in these forests depend upon these and other trees for their livelihood, and therefore take very good care of the forest, making sure other species are left untouched, and even for the rosewood, only old and mature trees cut, everything else is preserved for their future generations. "All the rosewood comes from Java. The bad story of the environment is in the islands of Kalimantan (Borneo) and Sumatra, basically where there has been a lot of commercial logging by huge forestry companies, that bring in tons of equipment, and pretty much destroy thousands of hectares of forest every year. This is more for commercial species like Merbau, Meranti, Bangkiai etc, which are in high demand for construction, plywood and other commercial uses. "Because of the nature of Rosewood trees, which are basically growing among a whole bunch of other species, it is not feasible for these large log companies to come in and do logging, and this ensures that the forests will not be destroyed. "Macassar is a very well protected species by the government , and there are huge taxes on every cubic meter taken out of the forest. And also the amounts taken out are subject to strict supervision. "Like rosewood, the local population tends to look after these trees. . Contrary to popular belief there are still a lot of macassar ebony forests forests around, most of them however are totally inaccessible, either very high up in steep rocky mountains, or deep in the valleys in between, which means commercial logging is impossible. This of course protects the species. "Ebony is also logged strictly by hand, using chain saws, after which it is carried out of the forests either by teams of men or using animals. Trucks etc. cannot be used in this terrain. So this naturally limits how much can actually be taken out. Add the weather factor (when it rains, as it does frequently), nothing can be done. "Both of these species are fairly well looked after, as people can appreciate their rarity even here, and the local people depend on them for their lifestyle." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1331893922' post='1580460']Theirs or the suppliers?[/quote] Both Gibson and its timber suppliers, including LMI, have been asked to answer questions by the US government about falsified paperwork. Gibson, in addition to illegal importing of timbers, is also being prosecuted for tax evasion and mislabelling/misdescription of place of manufacture of goods - its so-called "Made in USA" guitars, in fact, often being substantively manufactured in Japan, Indonesia, India, and elsewhere, although finished in the USA. Edited March 16, 2012 by noelk27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1331899174' post='1580579']Also was there not something about the wood being legal if it was a certain size or worked on in it's native country but because they were finishing it in the States made it illegal.[/quote] No, that's an issue of quotas, not making timbers illegally harvested legal. Your second point relates to the mislabelling/misdescription of place of manufacture issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1331899095' post='1580574']Gibson were done under American law, the Lacey Act, American law doesn't apply to Chinese manufacturers, as much as they like to think it does, big difference between acting legally, but indifferent to morals of other countries/cultures, and acting illegally and immorally.[/quote] Exactly. China is not a signatory to the same Schedules as the US, and is not bound by US legislation. Gibson has been pursued because its breaches are flagrant and substantial, and it has also commissioned acts of tax evasion, if all the assertions of US prosecutors are found to be proven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1331899174' post='1580579'] Also was there not something about the wood being legal if it was a certain size or worked on in it's native country but because they were finishing it in the States made it illegal. [/quote] If I understood and remember right, some of the problem Gibson had was India restricts export of raw materials ad only wants to export premade items, so they retain the industry, Gibson's supplier was ignoring this. That only applied to some wood of the various sorts they use, the Lacey Act basically makes America responsible for policing other countr's laws to an extent, in accordance with their self appointed role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1331893866' post='1580457'] If Gibson were the villains of the show (and without wanting to cast stones unfairly I did think the CEO looked very shifty and uncomfortable under questioning[/quote] I think that's Mr Juskiwiecz's default expression: Gibson QC - looks very shifty and uncomfortable MM series - looks very shifty and uncomfortable 'Roasted Maple' fingerboards - looks very shifty and uncomfortable Firebird X - looks very shifty and uncomfortable Price increases - looks very shifty and uncomfortable Rumours that he has a sexually transmitted disease - brightens up and becomes quite voluble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Just watched the documentary on iPlayer. I had a custom Warwick Dolphin Pro that had a Madagascan ebony fingerboard. I feel quite sick now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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