guy buys bass for £70 fiddles with it then sells it for £154

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1332160466' post='1583998']

He's a bodger so why should we think his set ups are any better?
[/quote]

Nooooo! He's a botcher. Bodgers are skilled, creative individuals - or were you sticking up for him!

[MB1]

MB1.
MD Phillips?.....Doctor of the Bass?

[Musky]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1332169664' post='1584193']
From a Re read



what is Hornbeam?

Has anyone ever seen a production bass made in Beech or cedar?
[/quote]

A lot of old instruments from Britain/Europe used beech bodies, and necks too. I'd imagine it was used mostly because there was good availability at a decent price, much the same reasons for Leo Fender using ash and alder.

I think the Parker Flys use cedar for the bodies.

But yeah, it's a strange selection of woods he's decided that the bass isn't made from. Probably to show that you're dealing with a man that knows all about timber and their properties.

Strangely enough, just before this thread was posted I was looking at some of his other listings and admiring how well they were crafted, right down to the pictures of him holding the instruments. Wonder if he ever worked in advertising?

[apa]

He'd make a fortune writing for cosmetics ads

A

[sixdegrees]

Sod the ethics/profit margin argument, I love the question at the bottom of the page from a prospective buyer!

[jack1999]

Just found this topic. The guy is a friend of mine.

I don't really play bass but I do play guitar. And actually he doesn't make much money out of it. He has setup all of my guitars and to be honest he will make a Squire or Encore strat much more playable than they are out of the box. I went to Guitarland in Boston last week... played with a "real" strat. Abysmal and the strings a mile high. I wonder why they don't set them up properly - most guitars are pretty unplayable out of the box, except as my friend says, the Schecters - and sure enough the Schecter in the shop was a lot better.

He's an average bloke making a paltry amount out of something he enjoys. I can vouch for the outcome although I would have to agree that it can sometimes be achieved by unconventional means... he's a pretty good guitarist though (and bassist). And if the crappy companies didn't send the things out unplayable then there wouldn't be a need to file the nut.

And at the end of the day it is a free-market. If people want to buy something that has been setup and pay more money for it - that's their choice. I dread to think how many kids give up guitar because the things are so bad. Thus ensuring a good supply of cheap stuff.

Whoever said that ebay & paypal fees etc bite into any "profit". Yes they do. I have incidentally seen the mails from lots of people who express their gratitude for well set up and playable instruments. I've not seen any complaints and this guy isn't someone who would be dishonest to me about the reality.

[Ou7shined]

Hey Jack. Thanks for joining the discussion. Quite eloquently put for a 13 year old (jack[b]1999[/b] )

I don't think anyone would have a problem with your friend doing up guitars and basses to make a bit of baccy and beer money for himself if it's something he enjoys - in fact some of it is quite entertaining to read in an "only on ebay" kind of way... and the portrait pics are class. But what's getting peoples hackles up here is a guy proclaiming himself a professional while turning out bodged (clearly not professionally treated) gear, disguised by spurious, misleading and at times down right confusing descriptions (even to us tech-nerds), then charging silly money for a set-up which will probably get all knocked to hell in the post anyway.

Yes it's a free-market... I think part of your argument was to look out for the kids, yes? Well try thinking ahead to the poor kid being drawn in by the name dropping and erroneous babble then shelling out over the odds for the "professionally set-up" guitar he thinks he's getting when he's clearly not.

Can you honestly say that [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fender-Squier-Stagemaster-7-wide-necked-six-string/190518981358"]this[/url] and [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SG-built-big-hands-Guild-7-string-size-6-string-/190568230765"]this[/url] are examples of quality work to be lauded? Your friend signs his auctions "guitar fixer/improver". I think you yourself said it better... he's just an average bloke. Yes maybe he can set up a guitar (let's face it anyone with an interest and a bit of technical knowhow can) but there is very little evidence of actual "improving" beyond that. And there are apparently counless more examples...
Someone lucky-dipped into past auctions and showed me a "1960's" guitar that had had his unique treatment and among other idiosyncrasies it had ended up with a "[size=4]Fender" (yet more pointless name dropping) [/size]string tree (from a guitar headstock) at the bridge to (and I quote) "[size=4]increase the down-force on the E and B strings as they cross the bridge[/size]". Now I'm no expert at "1960's" 6 string guitars but I doubt roughly whacking a string-tree into the body (the surrounding lacquer was clearly seen in the photo to be damaged as a result) of a vintage guitar to correct a problem at the bridge/saddles is improving it... but on the bright side, at least it's going to be safer at cornering with the increased down-force.

Btw Jack, welcome to the forum... I'm sorry your mate is getting it in the neck on here (and at least you've given him the right to reply), please don't let it put you off contributing further.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Ou7shined

[jack1999]

13? But my birthday isn't until July... )

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll address your points in some sort of order.

The "professional" thing is a moot point. As far as I know there are no "professional qualifications" in the world of guitar building / luthering such as there are in say medicine, accountancy, insurance or law etc. The things that give you letters after your name. Therefore "professional" is always going to mean different things to different people. What criteria would you apply before someone can claim to be a professional in the art of guitar set-up?

He's not charging anyone, he is offering goods for sale at a price. If he was deliberately trying to make a buck at any cost I would be the first to disapprove. He does provide accurate descriptions in his listings (although with some of his flowery spiel) and as I said the feedback is generally very good from the buyers. He has incidentally been shafted a few times when buying guitars on ebay from people who were less honest! Although his methods may be slightly odd it doesn't actually matter. The guitars are well playable (seriously, I get to play many of them them before and after) and they perform and look as described / photoed.

In terms of the setup.. as I say he's set-up my guitars and improved them. He's selling reasonably cheap guitars but with his setup they are miles better than as sold by the manufacturers / official dealers.. I feel a lot more anger towards these organisations who frankly are selling guitars that are not really in a "fit for purpose" state. And curiously almost as if they have no pride in their product. They are committing much more of a fraud on the customer! And actually in the longer term they don't really do their brand any favour. IMHO anyway.. There is no warning on the box "warning: has not been set-up properly - you may not find it easy to play". Quite bizarre!

The 7 string to 6 string conversion is interesting. It came about because he has relatively sausage fingers and when he changed to finger-picking style found that he had trouble with regular neck widths. So he turned a 7 string into a 6 string for himself. And as 7 string guitars were a bit of a fad (that seems to have now gone out of favour, if it ever was in) they seem to come up quite cheap second-hand. Now having converted one he thought "perhaps other people might want one too". And there were a few. Now doing the conversion is not an easy job to do and end up with a crafted result if you're on a budget. The budget is "what I can sell it for - (what I paid for it + fees + conversion costs + some element of profit as reward for time spent)". There are no parts you can buy for such an adaption (assuming they fell into the budget). And to design / machine your own would take too much time (especially if you're converting whatever 7 string guitar you find to buy - so no set pattern to use) and require expensive equipment etc.

If there's £60 to be made out of a guitar as a reward for the converting and all the associated effort associated with buying / selling then there's not much money that can be justified on doing it perfectly. So you have to work with what you have available and make-do.

Just realised this all sounds quite defensive but I wanted to give some insight. Perhaps if you're local to East Sussex you'd like him more in the flesh )

[silentbob]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1332097726' post='1583256']
Local luther to me charges £54 for a full set up that includes alot more than this guy offers. No ebay fees and no PP. Ive never used him. Just an instant example.

[url="http://kimwebberguitars.co.uk/repair/index.html"]http://kimwebberguit...pair/index.html[/url] (Yes it is the guy who did the diamond LP).

A
[/quote]

Just as well you've never used Kim Webber, if I were you i'd avoid at all costs. A couple of years ago I needed a new nut on one of my basses, so gave Mr Webber a call. Seemed like a nice enough bloke on the phone, quoted me £20 and told me i could drop the bass off that afternoon. When I got to his place (about an eight mile drive) Mr Webber told me he'd made a mistake on the phone, and that the cost would actually be £30. He then proceeded to tell me that he would also have to give the bass a set up (not optional) at an additional cost of £60. I decided at this point that i'd heard enough and tried to make my excuses and leave, but Mr Webber pushed on, saying that I obviously couldn't afford his services but was too embarrassed to say so. I was now heading for the door, but even then he kept on at me, saying he would knock £10 off of the set up price if I took some music lessons from his son. In the end I just said I'd think about it and get back to him and did a runner. Luckily i've since managed to find an excellent chap just one street over from Mr Webber who does fantastic work at a very reasonable price (it's the guy that Jaywalk Guitars in Street use), but i still wonder from time to time if Mr Webber treats all his customers like he treated me, because if he does, i'm amazed he's still in business.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='jack1999' timestamp='1332617438' post='1590840']
The "professional" thing is a moot point. As far as I know there are no "professional qualifications" in the world of guitar building / luthering such as there are in say medicine, accountancy, insurance or law etc. The things that give you letters after your name. Therefore "professional" is always going to mean different things to different people. What criteria would you apply before someone can claim to be a professional in the art of guitar set-up?
[/quote]

There are various qualifications that can be got for purpose of guitar work. But for the purpose of this forum, it is here: http://basschat.co.uk/topic/26654-recommended-luthiers/

That give you 'competent' and 'recommended'. Professional means doing as a business or being paid to do so, and you've already implied this guy doesn't come under that category either. Some people don't like dictionary definitions though.

[Mark David Phillips]

Hello everyone,
I didn't know about 'Basschat' but it is a really good site I reckon.
For my sins I have to confess that I am that criminal who has been reported on this site for buying basses, improving them, then selling them for what the market wants to pay for them!

In fact, just reading through the various responses to my crimes I would like to say how reasonable and kind 90% of the people on here have been, in face of my sins!

Can I just say that I honestly do my best to make guitars good to play and sold for an affordable price... I have been doing it full time for a few years now, but I am getting better all the time, and wandering into music shops and picking up their guitars, I have never yet found even top Fenders or Gibsons where I thought... oops! this is so much better to play than my guitars are; in fact the reverse.

When I set up one of my guitars, I polish the fretboard and wire-wool tarnished fret-wires, I put on new strings, I file the nut grooves to bring the strings right low above the first fret-wire, I settle any high fret-wires along the neck, set the truss rod to shape the neck, adjust the bridge height, balance the pickups for even volume across the strings and between pickups, I oil crackly pots and sticky tuners and hone out corroded jack sockets that give intermittent signal.

On a customer's guitar I charge £45 including new strings for this set up work... on my ebay sold guitars it is just what I do before I list them for sale.

I try to be 100% transparent about the guitar on both virtues and faults... on faults because with postage hassle, the last thing I want is someone sending the guitar back saying it plays like a cricket bat, please fix again and return to me!
So I try to make them as perfect to play as it is possible for that particular guitar to be.

It is my sole employment, and with two small kids to feed it matters a lot to me that I can improve and grow my still fledgling venture, so any advice, and all criticisms are very welcome and useful.
Thanks guys,
Mark D Phillips.......

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Mark David Phillips' timestamp='1332706822' post='1592001']
I oil crackly pots
[/quote]

Aaargh

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1332721303' post='1592206']
Aaargh
[/quote]

I was desperately trying to resist (no pun) that one.

[apa]

Mark welcome to BC

Good luck with your endevours to be a Luither. I can think of nothing better than making your hobby your living. Taking a course on Luithering, setting up your own company, offering set ups that suit individuals and simply stating what you do would be my prefered route I think. But you take your own route.

And yes the 'oiling the pots' hit me straight way to!!! This really does sum up what we're talking about here Mark.

I first came across your ads when your six string conversion from a 7 string was highlited here. Reading your descriptions of 'pro set up' and 'ready to gig' then looking at the pictures of half a pickup and M6 nuts under bridges said it all to me. So when I see your other ads written in the same vain I have little faith Im afraid.

Your actually between a rock and a hard place. An 'ordinary bloke' who does that to guitars? Id take a sideways glance and think 'Good luck with that one mate'. Some one 'doing Professional* Guitar setups' and charging for it? Id critisise them till Im blue in the face.

Make your mind up time Mark. I mean this in the most positive way possible.

Still, I look forward to reading your advice in the Repairs section.

May years ago I was a structural engineer. Went out the game then for a bit of extra cash I did house extension plans. After a few I realised I'd been out of the building regs and British starndards for too long so I stopped. If I needed to make a living from it I would have gone back to colledge and invested in some CAD software. I didnt have to so I didnt.

*Your charging for the service therefore you take the responsability just like any other trade.


Andrew P Asher (Noodler Extraordinaire)

[apa]

[quote name='silentbob' timestamp='1332621781' post='1590916']
Just as well you've never used Kim Webber, if I were you i'd avoid at all costs. A couple of years ago I needed a new nut on one of my basses, so gave Mr Webber a call. Seemed like a nice enough bloke on the phone, quoted me £20 and told me i could drop the bass off that afternoon. When I got to his place (about an eight mile drive) Mr Webber told me he'd made a mistake on the phone, and that the cost would actually be £30. He then proceeded to tell me that he would also have to give the bass a set up (not optional) at an additional cost of £60. I decided at this point that i'd heard enough and tried to make my excuses and leave, but Mr Webber pushed on, saying that I obviously couldn't afford his services but was too embarrassed to say so. I was now heading for the door, but even then he kept on at me, saying he would knock £10 off of the set up price if I took some music lessons from his son. In the end I just said I'd think about it and get back to him and did a runner. Luckily i've since managed to find an excellent chap just one street over from Mr Webber who does fantastic work at a very reasonable price (it's the guy that Jaywalk Guitars in Street use), but i still wonder from time to time if Mr Webber treats all his customers like he treated me, because if he does, i'm amazed he's still in business.
[/quote]

Thats actually a bit erm....... creepy

I know Jaywalk so if I do need anyone I know where to go. Thanks for the heads up silentbob

A

[waynepunkdude]

I wish you all the luck mate, I do re-finishes and was thinking of doing it as a sideline but when you start charging you have to make sure you have to be up to professional standards I wasn't sure I was so I stick to doing my own and friends for no charge.

As I say I hope you do well but I can't forgive you for what you did to that Squier 7 string.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1332756159' post='1592464']
Surprised people picked up on the oiling the pots.
[/quote]

We recently had a discussion in repairs and tech about fret finishing, regarding wire wool techniques, it is a valid one if you do it right. Oil in pots is always a no though, especially WD40. Putting WD40 into electronics is bad, and happens too often.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1332765620' post='1592703']
We recently had a discussion in repairs and tech about fret finishing, regarding wire wool techniques, it is a valid one if you do it right. Oil in pots is always a no though, especially WD40. Putting WD40 into electronics is bad, and happens too often.
[/quote]

A little, very little, very light oil on pots was the old school way back in the days when switch cleaner was just that and didnt contain lubricant - more likely Trych , Might be meant as a figure of speech anyway, said it my self often enough. It is old school though, I've even seen older engineers rub a pencil over the track ( works a treat as a bodge for knackeredpots btw )

WD40 does have its uses in electronics as well, but not usually in amps. It does what it says, Displaces Moisture, thatsa what WD means..

[Ou7shined]

I used to use lighter fluid before the advent of switch cleaner.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1332774996' post='1592921']
Oil and WD40 have a real bad side affect. they attract dust and dirt and leave something nice for it all to stick too.

[/quote]

And the lubriant in Ambersil/Servisol/2GA/Maplins own brand etc doesnt ?? how about the lubricant thats put into the pots by the manufacturer, yknow, the stuff that dries out and makes the pot stiff to turn.

Mineral oils might attach the plastics used these days though, older stuff didnt have so much plastic, pots were gunmetal and paxolin, with a cadmium plated back,

Edited March 26, 2012 by BRANCINI

[Mr. Foxen]

There are a few servisol products, not all have lubricant. Whichever of de-oxit or Peavey funkout the Subthumper uses does leaves a residue, as sprayed some in a cap for dipping, and it retained an oily film. I jsut looked, I have Servisol Super 10, says lubricant, but is doesn't leave much residue, I think the IPA100 or similar is the no lube one. ED40 does bad things to plastics, not sure if it is the oily part or the solvent part though, pretty bad news for your fingers either way.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1332779290' post='1593012']
There are a few servisol products, not all have lubricant. Whichever of de-oxit or Peavey funkout the Subthumper uses does leaves a residue, as sprayed some in a cap for dipping, and it retained an oily film. I jsut looked, I have Servisol Super 10, says lubricant, but is doesn't leave much residue, I think the IPA100 or similar is the no lube one. ED40 does bad things to plastics, not sure if it is the oily part or the solvent part though, pretty bad news for your fingers either way.
[/quote]

Unless pots have changed since I last bothered to take one apart, they have silver plated contacts where the slider connects to the central slip ring type arrangement. If you dont put some sort of lubricant/coating on it the silver tarnishes and the pot crackles. Its not always the track.

I started as an apprentice in the late 60s for a firm that would and did repair just about anything
there were a lot of older engineers where I worked who still liked old methods, so silvered contacts were cleaned with metal polish and smeared with vaseline, The equivalent to servisol super 10 was around, and was use liberally by others to clean pots. Same with valvebases, older guys would use a penknife and scrape the pins on & valvebases, and tighten them with a needle as well, younger ones just squirt em. I was lucky, i aquired a few skills and learned to improvise with [s]bodges[/s] modifications that a lot of engineers my age, let alone younger ones, would never think of, or would certainly frown on, .

btw, dont use servisol on slider pots, makes them stick and feel orrible to use.

Edited March 26, 2012 by BRANCINI

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1332773598' post='1592889']
I used to use lighter fluid before the advent of switch cleaner.
[/quote]

lol.

I remember trying meths once cos it was all I had at home, was working on an old valve tape recorder which was powered up and running at the time. Trickled a few drops onto the big long record slider switch, pressed the record button and the bloody thing burst into flames.

[Mark David Phillips]

Hi again,
And all interesting stuff to give thought to.
On pots it is simple to me: you have a pot that at best crackles, and often that cuts out when moved; if you do nothing you still have a pot that crackles etc: if you oil and work it in it goes quiet and works smoothly... is that really such a bad thing?
In a £45 service, soldering in new pots is not going to happen, your job is to make his guitar play and sound nice by improving and making the best of what there is already there.
If someone pays £125 for a nice old Les Paul copy and leaves it with you to make it play nice for him... his return the next day to a £150 bill will have him in tears!

That Squier XII in my profile photo was the one referred to I think, and was the first seven string I ever converted to a six... which is why I look so pleased with myself. I cannot remember where I used M6 nuts (though I used a trapeze tail so could be on that?), but it is possible as the strat type bridge is a pain to convert and subsequently I avoided them as much as I could.
I sold that Squier strat locally, then bought it back in a trade for a Shine semi acoustic, and sold it to a guy in Australia who uses it in an Ozy rock band, he says he loves it.

Someone had misgivings about my bridge conversions on some Guild De Armonds I made a year or so back? Those have standard Gibson tunomatic bridges, and are the simplest conversion of all, and have been 100% secure and successful.
As Gwyn pointed out in a previous posting; there are no seven string width six string bridges made... you have to convert a seven string bridge, it is the only way; and they work fine... maybe you have looked at the photos and thought, oops, that looks dodgy? But I have done loads of those now and they work like a charm!

I am no luthier at all... I really couldn't be arsed to mess around with gluing bits of wood together; I love guitars and making them work right... a master bodger who is never happier than with getting some doggy old Encore strat and making it play as well or even better than a Fender.
Cheers guys,
Mark D Phillips.......

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Mark David Phillips' timestamp='1332801943' post='1593473']

On pots it is simple to me: you have a pot that at best crackles, and often that cuts out when moved; if you do nothing you still have a pot that crackles etc: if you oil and work it in it goes quiet and works smoothly... is that really such a bad thing?
In a £45 service, soldering in new pots is not going to happen, your job is to make his guitar play and sound nice by improving and making the best of what there is already there.

[/quote]

Fuel indicator light on my petrol car comes on, it pull into a garage and fill it with diesel, problem solved, the light goes out and I pull out the garage and trundle down the road