Authenticity in Popular music.

[JakeBrownBass]

Hey guys, i'm in the middle of doing some research in Authenticity in popular music for an assignment at uni.

I thought i'd open the discussions with you lot.

What are your feelings on the matter, what makes for example Led Zeppelin more authentic than lets say, Jedward etc...

You can see where i'm going with this

So what is your take on authenticity in music. What makes it authentic and what doesn't.

Edited March 19, 2012 by JakeBrownBass

[Low End Bee]

Jed Zeppelin. Only half authentic.

[wateroftyne]

Do you mean authentic or credible?

I'm not sure how pop music could ever be authentic..?

[crez5150]

is any music authentic???????

[lapolpora]

For me:

Bunch of mates from school/college/friends/musicians knocking about getting together, forming a band and making it - authentic.

Bunch of random bods auditioning to be in the latest group put together by a puppet master - not authentic.

However, I like and listen to music from both camps. I don't mind as long as the pop act is not pretending to be something it's not.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='lapolpora' timestamp='1332172954' post='1584265']
Bunch of random bods auditioning to be in the latest group put together by a puppet master - not authentic.
[/quote]
It just goes to show... I think this is pop music at its most authentic.

[Conan]

Define "authentic".

[Bilbo]

I think it is a case of manufactured over organic. If the impetus comes from the creativity of individuals who are in the bands, then there is a level of integrity that is missing when the 'band' are the front for a corporate hit making machine.

The Beatles = authentic. The Monkees = bogus
Genesis = authentic (they met at school). JLS = bogus (they met at X Factor auditions)
Take That = authentic (one of them writes all their stuff). Girls Aloud = bogus (its all written for them) and so on

[crez5150]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1332173402' post='1584273']
Define "authentic".
[/quote]

Define 'Pop' music...... isn't a term for 'Popular' music....... how do you define that?

[JakeBrownBass]

When i say pop music, i don't mean as in the 90's pop groups, i'm talking from the 20's onwards, all 'popular' music.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1332172762' post='1584260']
Do you mean authentic or credible?

I'm not sure how pop music could ever be authentic..?
[/quote]

Tomayto, Tomarto

Authenticity comes with credibility.

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1332172907' post='1584264']
is any music authentic???????
[/quote]

we're not far enough in the thread for that yet.

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1332173402' post='1584273']
Define "authentic".
[/quote]

"undisputed credibility"
"the quality of being genuine or not corrupted from the original"
"not counterfeit or copied"
"genuine, reliable, trustworthy"
"actual, authoritative, faithful, genuine, reliable"

[LiamPodmore]

I think the most authentic act in pop today has to be Lady Gaga, she writes her stuff, she writes other people's stuff, and she has a brilliant set of pipes. Yes, the stage show might not be called Authentic, but she sure can. That and she ALWAYS has a good band backing her.

All in my opinion, of course.

Liam

[markstuk]

Sound of giant can of worms being opened... And I think you're going to need define "authentic" very carefully if you ever get to writing down your conclusions... And one persons "authentic" is another persons "derivative".. It depends on your own experience and expectations..

But I think there are some things that generally apply (for me anyway)

1. It should come from a roots tradition which is commonly accepted in it's own location.. ie peoples music..
2. It should be "all our own work" by the musicians involved, and be primarily about what they want to express rather than what they feel a much wider audience would feel at ease with.
3. Commercial success should not be the overriding driving factor.

It's a start ...:-) Now shoot me down :-)

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332172576' post='1584253']
Hey guys, i'm in the middle of doing some research in Authenticity in popular music for an assignment at uni.

I thought i'd open the discussions with you lot.

What are your feelings on the matter, what makes for example Led Zeppelin more authentic than lets say, Jedward etc...

You can see where i'm going with this

So what is your take on authenticity in music. What makes it authentic and what doesn't.
[/quote]

IMO this is the problem with being able to study "popular music" at university. In the end it's entirely subjective and all a little pointless.

From my PoV Led Zep are no more or less authentic than Jedward. They were a manufactured band by Jimmy Page - a session bassist and a couple of nobodies from Birmingham that could be exploited. It's all a question of perspective. Plus Jedward are a lot more fun.

Course mark: Must try harder...

Edited March 19, 2012 by BigRedX

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1332175138' post='1584311']
IMO this is the problem with being able to study "popular music" at university. In the end it's entirely subjective and all a little pointless.
[/quote]

Anything that can hold an opinion with people is subjective. Analysing metaphors in poem's whilst studying English Literature can equally be classed as 'pointless'

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1332175138' post='1584311']
IMO this is the problem with being able to study "popular music" at university. In the end it's entirely subjective and all a little pointless.

From my PoV Led Zep are no more or less authentic than Jedward. They were a manufactured band by Jimmy Page - a session bassist and a couple of nobodies from Birmingham that could be exploited. It's all a question of perspective. Plus Jedward are a lot more fun.
[/quote]

The artists in question aren't relevant. They were just two artists that popped into my head.

[Bilbo]

Actually. the more I think about it the more its an elephant in the room. The detailed definitions will differ across the board but we all pretty much know what comes from the heart and what comes from the desire for wealth for its own sake. Some pure pop (real lightweight stuff) can genuinely come from the heart and some real hardcore stuff can be manufactured but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.....

I saw something on the tv the other day where Trevor Horn admitted noone from Frankie Goes To Hollywood played on Relax. NOOOO!!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332175444' post='1584320']
Anything that can hold an opinion with people is subjective. Analysing metaphors in poem's whilst studying English Literature can equally be classed as 'pointless'

The artists in question aren't relevant. They were just two artists that popped into my head.
[/quote]

But surely this exercise should be all about your opinions and not what a bunch of people on an internet forum think. Make up your own mind and argue your case.

And in the OP the implication was that Led Zep were more authentic than Jedward. I was pointing out that from where I'm standing their inceptions were equally manufactured - although you could even argue that at the very beginning Jedward was less manufactured than Led Zep.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1332175624' post='1584326']
I saw something on the tv the other day where Trevor Horn admitted noone from Frankie Goes To Hollywood played on Relax. NOOOO!!
[/quote]
So does that make it authentic Trevor Horn?

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1332176122' post='1584335']
But surely this exercise should be all about your opinions and not what a bunch of people on an internet forum think. Make up your own mind and argue your case.

And in the OP the implication was that Led Zep were more authentic than Jedward. I was pointing out that from where I'm standing their inceptions were equally manufactured - although you could even argue that at the very beginning Jedward was less manufactured than Led Zep.
[/quote]

I have my opinions and know what i think in the matter of authenticity in music.
It's not about arguing a point, it's researching what & why people think some things are authentic and others less so.

The reason i posted this on a music forum is because generally, as musicians, you have a deeper view and feeling into matters like this. Opening a discussion and viewing other's opinions. There is no right or wrong answer, just opinion and beliefs.

[Alec 'Aleb' Mills]

basically have the come out of a fame factory?

[ahpook]

in the post-modern era, does 'authenticity' have any meaning ?

Edited March 19, 2012 by ahpook

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332176625' post='1584351']
... There is no right or wrong answer, just opinion and beliefs.
[/quote]
Is that an opinion or a belief? Or are you claiming it as absolute truth?

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1332177334' post='1584373']
Is that an opinion or a belief? Or are you claiming it as absolute truth?
[/quote]

[Musky]

Blimey. Something I might be be able to contribute something useful to - I wrote my dissertation on authenticity in popular music, albeit back in the mid nineties when the subject was distinctly under-theorised. I know Simon Frith has since taken quite an interest in the subject, and doubtless many others too, so what I learned my well be distinctly old hat nowadays.

Quite a few people have mentioned that you have to define authenticity, and what is authentic to one person is not to another. That is entirely the point. Authenticity in music does not actually exist in any concrete sense, but is produced entirely as a result of the meaning given to it by the individual - and it's a constantly evolving process in which the audience can be as creative as the artist.

I'd imagine Jake is posing his question because he wants to know what we (as individuals) consider authentic to build up a picture of how we construct our own versions of authenticity.

Quite interesting to note that a number are doubting the existence of authenticity at all, which fits in nicely with post-modernist theory - authentic inauthenticity as Lawrence Grossberg called it. Why shouldn't Jedward be more authentic than Led Zeppelin? At least we all know how they came about, saw (and perhaps participated in )their rise to fame on our TV's and know their songs were writen for them by others - something that can't be said of LZ.

[skankdelvar]

I'm not entirely sure why, but the word authenticity makes me reach for my revolver.

Most people wouldn't know authentic if it bit them in the nads, simply because they judge authenticity on the basis of information supplied to them by the artists, their PR company, their record label and by what they read on the web and in mags.

So when some numpty goes on about Mumford and Sons being authentic, it's probably because someone else told them so. Or they have a fatal weakness for collarless shirts and waistcoats.

See, it has the same attraction as the 'artist starving in a garret' cliche or the nostalgie de la boue or the noble savage. It's what the punter isn't, so it must be good.

In the end, most musical performers sell their arse, one way or another. File under 'Authentic' or pop. It's all the same.

[paul_5]

Chances are, if pop music (in its definition as 'music that isn't classical' - another problematic adjective) is truly 'authentic' then you've never heard it. Dubstep started as 4 or 5 mates making music that they liked, then with in a couple of years it's being used to advertise Weetabix.

You could do a lot worse than finding a copy of 'On Jazz' by Theodore Adorno - all of his arguments against perceived authenticity (or pseudo-individualisation, as he called it) ring true in today's musical market place.

There's nowt new.