LukeFRC Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332176904' post='1584365'] in the post-modern era, does 'authenticity' have any meaning ? [/quote] +1 or we could follow Bill Drummonds lead and declare any recorded music inauthentic dead stuff. [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1332197718' post='1584829'] I'm not entirely sure why, but the word authenticity makes me reach for my revolver. Most people wouldn't know authentic if it bit them in the nads, simply because they judge authenticity on the basis of information supplied to them by the artists, their PR company, their record label and by what they read on the web and in mags. So when some numpty goes on about Mumford and Sons being authentic, it's probably because someone else told them so. Or they have a fatal weakness for collarless shirts and waistcoats. See, it has the same attraction as the 'artist starving in a garret' cliche or the nostalgie de la boue or the noble savage. It's what the punter isn't, so it must be good. In the end, most musical performers sell their arse, one way or another. File under 'Authentic' or pop. It's all the same. [/quote] so when the lead guy from Mumford was playing his songs up in edinburgh before he was famous, same songs, same style but just acoustic... was that authentic or non authentic? at which point did it switch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332172576' post='1584253'] Hey guys, i'm in the middle of doing some research in Authenticity in popular music for an assignment at uni. I thought i'd open the discussions with you lot. What are your feelings on the matter, what makes for example Led Zeppelin more authentic than lets say, Jedward etc... You can see where i'm going with this So what is your take on authenticity in music. What makes it authentic and what doesn't. [/quote] PLEASE DEFINE 'AUTHENTICITY' !! I think most of this thread is barking up the wrong small shrub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I always thought the Sex Pistols were an interesting one regarding authenticity, since they appear to have been a manufactured band under the guidance of Malcolm Mclaren and at least one of them couldn't actually play in any meaningful sense of the word. Yet they are seen to epitomise Punk authenticity by many. What's going on there? [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1332231442' post='1585011'] so when the lead guy from Mumford was playing his songs up in edinburgh before he was famous, same songs, same style but just acoustic... was that authentic or non authentic? at which point did it switch? [/quote] I remember seeing him around too. I think it's the media presentation of them as being the new Folk which gets peoples goat, particularly among folkies who see them as yet more acoustic singer songwriter types with added waistcoats and banjos. Personally it doesn't bother me, as I'm free to not buy their albums if it's not my thing. Considered as a singer songwriter he's probably no more or less authentic than any number of other blokes with acoustic guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332199944' post='1584864'] OK, so maybe I am wrong about this and maybe it's questioning the reflection of the 'self', or otherwise, through popular music, rather than exploitation of the masses through musical hymns. [/quote] i'd interpret it to being about how the concept of post-modernism affects the notion of original and authentic work, and also about commodification and mass media. well, that's how i'd start writing it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332231704' post='1585014'] PLEASE DEFINE 'AUTHENTICITY' !! I think most of this thread is barking up the wrong small shrub. [/quote] Sorry only just got back to this and not had chance to read through yet. With the nature of the argument it's very hard to actually define authenticity, I posted a couple definitions on the first pages. I guess in its simplest terms, undeniable credibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1332173411' post='1584274'] I think it is a case of manufactured over organic. If the impetus comes from the creativity of individuals who are in the bands, then there is a level of integrity that is missing when the 'band' are the front for a corporate hit making machine. The Beatles = authentic. The Monkees = bogus Genesis = authentic (they met at school). JLS = bogus (they met at X Factor auditions) Take That = authentic (one of them writes all their stuff). Girls Aloud = bogus (its all written for them) and so on [/quote] The Monkees later wrested control of their own destiny from the record company. Does that mean they became authentic? I don't think Elvis Presley wrote his own stuff. Does that, in and of itself, make him bogus? Anyway, I have noticed that no-one has actually tried to find out what authentic actually means, rather than simply deciding on your own definition and then spouting off about Led Zeppelin within the self-defined authenticity paradigm. So I checked, and found the relevant definition: 5. Music . a. (of a church mode) having a range extending from the final to the octave above. Compare plagal. b. (of a cadence) consisting of a dominant harmony followed by a tonic. which means that Status Quo are as authentic as they come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332234849' post='1585071'] undeniable credibility. [/quote] Does not exist in popular music. [/thread] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1332235276' post='1585076'] .... (of a cadence) consisting of a dominant harmony followed by a tonic. [/quote] Stick a double Tanqueray in there and that's as authentic as I'll ever need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I think you also have to work out what the definition of 'Popular' is also...... How can you define what is popular and what is not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1332235765' post='1585089'] Does not exist in popular music. [/thread] [/quote] doesn't exist in any artistic endeavour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332234849' post='1585071'] Sorry only just got back to this and not had chance to read through yet. With the nature of the argument it's very hard to actually define authenticity, I posted a couple definitions on the first pages. I guess in its simplest terms, undeniable credibility. [/quote] The definitions you give are not what I would consider to be the root of the question. Are you sure these are the definitions given by your assignment? What is the actual question in your assignment? I posted a definition of philosophical 'authenticity' earlier. That makes much more sense to me. [i][b]Authenticity[/b] is a technical term in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism"]existentialist philosophy[/url], and is also used in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_art"]philosophy of art[/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology"]psychology[/url]. In philosophy, the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscious"]conscious[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_(philosophy)"]self[/url] is seen as coming to terms with being in a material world and with encountering external forces, pressures and influences which are very different from, and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other"]other[/url] than, itself. [b]Authenticity is the degree to which one is true to one's own personality, spirit, or character, despite these pressures.[/b] Different types of existentialist philosophers see this process in different ways.[/i] [i]A lack of authenticity is considered to be [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith"]bad faith[/url].[/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332237930' post='1585140'] [i][b]Authenticity is the degree to which one is true to one's own personality, spirit, or character, despite these pressures.[/b] [/i] [/quote] but if your personality/spirit/character is created from an assembly of ideas and concepts that have already been 'processed' by others, what does that mean for authenticity ? Edited March 20, 2012 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 This is all getting very zen....................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332238476' post='1585153'] but if your personality/spirit/character is created from an assembly of ideas and concepts that have already been 'processed' by others, what does that mean for authenticity ? [/quote] Therein lies a wonderful argument I actually feel like a pointless assemblage. No authenticity here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1332202242' post='1584906'] [indent=1]I don't think that plagiarism necessarily stops a band from being authentic - it's happened throughout the ages in all musical traditions![/indent] [/quote] even modern musicals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332238476' post='1585153'] but if your personality/spirit/character is created from an assembly of ideas and concepts that have already been 'processed' by others, what does that mean for authenticity ? [/quote] it means that unless you appreciate the 'oneness' of everything you are bounding/limiting yourself by your own subjective experience to be beholden to your own personal creativity and authenticity ommmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1332238987' post='1585167'] it means that unless you appreciate the 'oneness' of everything you are bounding/limiting yourself by your own subjective experience to be beholden to your own personal creativity and authenticity ommmmm [/quote] your own 'personal' creativity and authenticity is based upon a long sequence of ideas being absorbed, modified and re-used. all ideas are based on earlier ideas, so the idea that there is a inviolate 'authenticity' to any idea is, to a large extent, a myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 When I was 16, I probably worried about such things. Thirty years on, I don't give a stuff . There's music I like, ranging from Baroque to Heavy Rock, from Jazz to Electronica. I teach my children to explore different kinds of music, to try not to be closed-minded and to form their own opinions. There is good and bad in all genre, but it's all music so just enjoy what you like but don't poo-poo what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332239147' post='1585174'] your own 'personal' creativity and authenticity is based upon a long sequence of ideas being absorbed, modified and re-used. all ideas are based on earlier ideas, so the idea that there is a inviolate 'authenticity' to any idea is, to a large extent, a myth. [/quote] indeed - there are no original ideas just recycling of all the old ones over and over again right up until the point of realisation when the cycle breaks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332237930' post='1585140'] The definitions you give are not what I would consider to be the root of the question. Are you sure these are the definitions given by your assignment? What is the actual question in your assignment? [/quote] The question itself is split it into almost blog like entries. Rather than a full blown essay, so 800-1000 words on each subject chosen. "Cultivating and sustaining an 'authentic' image through live performance and media coverage' I know this isn't the question i asked you guys, but i wanted to look at peoples opinions before moving to this. Live performance includes recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332239796' post='1585194'] "Cultivating and sustaining an 'authentic' image through live performance and media coverage' [/quote] my personal take on this would be to discuss 'maintianing and developing artistic consistency' - struggling to find the word im thinking of but sort of 'recognisability' too (is that a word or an americanism? its definitley another thread!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithless Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) This is just something I don't get about music tuition in colleges - I think, one is supposed to be a good musician, rather than essayist, and spend most of the time on practice. I bet it this sh*t must be driving you crazy, Jake. Take care, L Edited March 20, 2012 by Faithless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 Here's one guys rant on the matter, http://wtait.tumblr.com/ [quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1332240817' post='1585227'] This is just something I don't get about music tuition in colleges - I think, one is supposed to be a good musician, rather than essayist, and spend most of the time on practice. I bet it this sh*t must be driving you crazy, Jake. Take care, L [/quote] don't get me started on that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 This thread is completely mental. The essay question has nothing to do with 'authenticity', it is much more related to developing and maintaining artistic INTEGRITY, whatever that may mean. Just sounds like another music college ripping off their students with this bullshit instead of teaching them MUSIC, and letting them form their own philosophical approaches. FFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332241435' post='1585246'] This thread is completely mental. The essay question has nothing to do with 'authenticity', it is much more related to developing and maintaining artistic INTEGRITY, whatever that may mean. Just sounds like another music college ripping off their students with this bullshit instead of teaching them MUSIC, and letting them form their own philosophical approaches. FFS [/quote] Oh no, we get taught MUSIC. This lesson is just an hour a week of what i consider admin work to give the government some written work to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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