xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332241532' post='1585248'] Oh no, we get taught MUSIC. This lesson is just an hour a week of what i consider admin work to give the government some written work to look at. [/quote] Crap innit £9k a year to get asked 34 hours worth of complete bollocks. I hope the music teaching is better quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1332240817' post='1585227'] This is just something I don't get about music tuition in colleges - I think, one is supposed to be a good musician, rather than essayist, and spend most of the time on practice. I bet it this sh*t must be driving you crazy, Jake. Take care, L [/quote] things dont change - i was at art college in mid 80s - we were taught art and design - but there was still the one hour a week of exactly this sort of thing as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I hate academics... no really, I do. It's a pointless discussion. You might as well ask if music is "organic" or something. Authentic just means something is "real" - well all all music is real otherwise I can't hear it. I work in IT and people love to bang on about things being "virtual". It's equally ridiculous. It's not virtual - I can see it; it's there on that screen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332241687' post='1585249'] Crap innit £9k a year to get asked 34 hours worth of complete bollocks. I hope the music teaching is better quality. [/quote] Ah i got in before the rise in fee's so not quite as bad. It's one of the best music schools in the country, the music teaching is definitely better quality. Every course has things that are deemed pointless but have to be there to keep the'establishment' happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332242015' post='1585255'] Every course has things that are deemed pointless but have to be there to keep the'establishment' happy. [/quote] music is an artform - i don't see how you can study art without discussing its development and meaning. Edited March 20, 2012 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332242416' post='1585273'] music is an artform - i don't see how you can study art without discussing its development and meaning. [/quote] I guess my point is that some things aren't relevant to developing as a musician, which is why i'd hope most people are here for. There are different ways in discussing its development and meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332242416' post='1585273'] music is an artform - i don't see how you can study art without discussing its development and meaning. [/quote] Maybe but, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the argument that if you are a millionaire superstar musician you can't sing about poverty. It just seems like a pointless argument to me but perhaps that's the argument in itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332176904' post='1584365'] in the post-modern era, does 'authenticity' have any meaning ? [/quote] I doubt it. Is it more authentic to form your own outlet for your music; or to be honest about being manufactured? I doubt there's a single definition worth anything to all people. It will be entirely individual, because using the term "authentic" requires a value judgement - something no 2-dimensional dictionary definition will capture. Edited March 20, 2012 by Gust0o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 I guess my begirding of this type of thing is that i feel it's all being over evaluated and everything seems to need a reason as to why some one did something or what they actually mean by doing said thing. It's a similar reason as to why i loved maths & physics in school rather than English literature, over analysing poems at books. Having teachers stood saying "the poet meant [i]this [/i]when he wrote that line" as appose to letting a poet write a poem without everyone reading too much in to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1332242755' post='1585286'] Maybe but, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the argument that if you are a millionaire superstar musician you can't sing about poverty. It just seems like a pointless argument to me but perhaps that's the argument in itself. [/quote] a poor person singing about poverty isn't singing solely about their poverty if they've heard any other music about poverty, or any other music for that matter. they'll be referencing all the other songs they've heard, even if they don't realise it. so, you could argue, their songs are as inauthentic as a rich person singing about poverty as they're not singing about themselves (f you believe that a rich person singing about poverty isn't possible, which i do not). Edited March 20, 2012 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1332242755' post='1585286'] Maybe but, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the argument that if you are a millionaire superstar musician you can't sing about poverty. It just seems like a pointless argument to me but perhaps that's the argument in itself. [/quote] I always found that argument to be bullshit too. If you are rich, why would that stop you singing about OTHER PEOPLE's poverty and the injustice and pain, etc. Unless the artist is a dumb f***ing sh*t with no empathy or soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1332243020' post='1585297'] a poor person singing about poverty isn't singing solely about their poverty if they've heard any other music about poverty, or any other music for that matter. they'll be referencing all the other songs they've heard, even if they don't realise it. so, you could argue, their songs are as inauthentic as a rich person singing about poverty as they're not singing about themselves. [/quote] I would hope they are refering to their own feelings about poverty, not other songs about poverty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332242015' post='1585255'] Ah i got in before the rise in fee's so not quite as bad. It's one of the best music schools in the country, the music teaching is definitely better quality. [/quote] Better quality than the grammar teaching, I hope . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332243212' post='1585304'] I would hope they are refering to their own feelings about poverty, not other songs about poverty. [/quote] they can't [i]not[/i] sing about other people's poverty as their artistic outlet is informed by all other portrayals of poverty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332243102' post='1585300'] I always found that argument to be bullshit too. If you are rich, why would that stop you singing about OTHER PEOPLE's poverty and the injustice and pain, etc. Unless the artist is a dumb f***ing sh*t with no empathy or soul. [/quote] You see, that is actually one of the arguments. The Auteur vs. Reproducer. The auteur is the man thats signing about poverty because he's in it. The reproducer is the man thats singing about what the other man's going through. Why is the Auteur generally classed as being authentic while the latter is not. It's never ending circles of arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='muttley' timestamp='1332243266' post='1585305'] Better quality than the grammar teaching, I hope . [/quote] I can't write to save my life. That's why i play music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Of course, I am old and cynical so I listen to music for its own sake. I worked out a long time ago that musicians are on the whole just dudes doing a job. However, they tell me that those young people really care about stuff like this. They need to *identify* with their musical heroes. Well, possibly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332243397' post='1585307'] You see, that is actually one of the arguments. The Auteur vs. Reproducer. The auteur is the man thats signing about poverty because he's in it. The reproducer is the man thats singing about what the other man's going through. Why is the Auteur generally classed as being authentic while the latter is not. It's never ending circles of arguments. [/quote] I unerringly disagree with that surmise. Writing about something that generates pain within you, whether its direct pain, or pain through empathy with another's, is not reproducing. All that matters is that it has integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1332243504' post='1585311'] [b]Of course, I am old and cynical so I listen to music for its own sake. I worked out a long time ago that musicians are on the whole just dudes doing a job.[/b] However, they tell me that those young people really care about stuff like this. They need to *identify* with their musical heroes. Well, possibly... [/quote] What a terribly sad indictment of the artist. I'm so glad I'm not like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332244136' post='1585336'] All that matters is that it has integrity. [/quote] there's a whole thread there my friend !!! Edited March 20, 2012 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332244197' post='1585343'] What a terribly sad indictment of the artist. I'm so glad I'm not like that. [/quote] I never intended that to be a bad thing. What's wrong with music being your job? It could be worse, you could be sat in front of a computer all day like me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332243430' post='1585308'] I can't write to save my life. That's why i play music. [/quote] Good for you. Play to your strengths (excuse the pun). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332239796' post='1585194'] "Cultivating and sustaining an 'authentic' image through live performance and media coverage' [/quote] Hah! And again - Hah! Exactly what I was banging on about earlier. Let's boil it down. 'Cultivating' - 'an authentic' - 'image' - 'media coverage' would seem to be the size of it. Well, there's a bollocks, not to put too fine a point upon it. Using the media to cultivate an image which conveys authenticity. What could be less 'authentic'? Well, authenticity might be one thing or another. It could be Silddx's quote or it could be something quite different. I think the 'authenticity' we're talking about here is a sort of commodity transaction. Authenticity does not reside in the artist. It exists in an observer's perceptions. It may be an unmanipulated perception or - more likely - the creation of the perception will have been bought and paid for. It's the function of the artist's associates to inculcate a perception of value in the artist's work which goes beyond a simple sequence of musical notes. The value is founded on a perception (true or false) of the artist's 'good faith'. Adding this perceived value to the sequence of notes enhances the desirability of the product, thereby increasing the likelihood of purchase. 'Authenticity' in this context is a branding tool. For 'New, Improved', simply substitute 'Genuine and unadulterated'. Kerching! Broadly, someone pushes the punter's buttons and a transaction takes place. The punter acquires not only a nice choon but - probably more importantly - a personal authenticity by association. And the artist acquires some cash. This is most perfectly embodied in tour merch. Buy the T-shirt and you're saying something about yourself, while extending the artist's branding presence. As for the actual question - how to cultivate an authentic image - well, it depends where we are on the marketing cycle. At the moment, it's all about acoustic guitars, waistcoats and sweaters, a general air of soulful concern. Give it another 12 months and it'll probably be about cheap electrics, ripped shirts and angry passion. The details are irrelevant - it's about getting the message out there. So my answer would be conveniently short - no need for 800 words. "Don't worry about what's authentic - hire the best stylist and PR company you can afford and leave it to the professionals. They know their job better than we do. ~ End" Edited March 20, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 So Authenticity == Marketing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 when i hear the word authentic, i reach for my revolver (or rather a metaphorical revolver, my conception of which is made up of all the revolvers i've seen in films and television, the couple i've fired, the toy revolvers i had when i was young, the revolvers people have told me about, etc. etc. etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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