Looking for a new lightweight rig, any suggestions please

[stevie]

What exactly does this mean?

[stevie]

What causes phase cancellation is not different driver sizes, it's the spacing between the drivers. So, a 1 x 15 plus 2 x 10 is not going to be any more or less "phase coherent" than two 2 x 10s.

[xgsjx]

The old theory that 15s was for low end & the 10s for adding some top is of old when 15s (& 4x10s) gave out more bass. This was mainly due to the size of the cab.

Mixing different drivers is a hit & miss thing, where it's most likely gonna sound different at each venue (sometimes good, sometimes dire, sometimes just ok).
Keeping the drivers all the same size means that you're gonna get a more predictable result in each venue.

Nowadays 15s don't give any more bass or less mid than 10s (unless they're cheap crap). I'm one for going with 2 2x10 cabs on the vertical. Putting the cabs so speakers are on the horizontal axis reduces the horizontal dispersion from them. Which makes the standatd 4x10 a poor design for stage use.

[chris_b]

IME…. I used Mesa Boogie 210 and 115 cabs for nearly 10 years. They sounded great together in all playing situations and exhibited none of these so called problems. I also ran an Epifani 410 with the Mesa 115 which was then replaced by a Bergantino 210, all with no ill effects to my sound. It was the house rig at a jam night so I got to hear it from all parts of the room with many different players. It was fine.

Whatever the science says, this is my experience, which is why I can say to anyone that asks that mixing speakers can and does work.

Barefaced (and you know you can trust them) recommend various mixed rigs.... enough said.

Edited April 5, 2012 by chris_b

[Lozz196]

With the rigs I`ve had that had different speaker sizes - Hartke 210 & 115, and Marshall 210 & 115 - they`ve sounded great.

With the Marshall, the 210 (which was a combo) was fine, the addition of the 115 just gave more depth and size to the sound. Whereas with the Hartke, the 210 on its own was weak beyond imagination, and the 115 was difficult to get a good sound from, very bassy, not much top end. But together they were great.

Theory is fine, I don`t understand all the techie stuff, I just let my ears judge it. My current cab is a 2x10 and 1x12 and tweeter in one cab - sounds awesome.

[leftybassman392]

I just took delivery of my GB Streamliner 600 and a Vanderkley 112EXT last weekend and am mightily impressed both with the sound and the (lack of) weight at around 17 Kg for the pair. Expensive, but well worth it IMHO. I don't do dewy-eyed over amps, but I really think this could be the keeper.

Having said that, someone brought a BF cab to the Lefty Bass Bash and it sounded awesome paired with a TC Staccatto - not to mention the Aguilar rig that Born 2B Mild brought from Bassgear - TH350 + SL112 which weighed next to nothing and sounded pretty good as well, so what do I know?

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1333648805' post='1604866'] With the rigs I`ve had that had different speaker sizes - Hartke 210 & 115, and Marshall 210 & 115 - they`ve sounded great. With the Marshall, the 210 (which was a combo) was fine, the addition of the 115 just gave more depth and size to the sound. Whereas with the Hartke, the 210 on its own was weak beyond imagination, and the 115 was difficult to get a good sound from, very bassy, not much top end. But together they were great. Theory is fine, I don`t understand all the techie stuff, I just let my ears judge it. My current cab is a 2x10 and 1x12 and tweeter in one cab - sounds awesome. [/quote]

It is all down to how the cab is (not the driver size) & that doesn't paint a very good picture of Hartke cabs

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1333646152' post='1604803']Barefaced (and you know you can trust them) recommend various mixed rigs.... enough said. [/quote]

But show me a BF rig with a single 15 & a horizontal 2x10 or trad 4x10. BF are one of the few companies that think about what cabs will work together as opposed to just doing the traditional marketing BS that most others throw at you.

Have a read at this...

http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm

[stevie]

[quote name='john the pond' timestamp='1333651253' post='1604926']
Nobody is saying "thou shalt not mix cabs"! But the reasons usually given are false.
[/quote]
You will notice that the people saying 'I mixed cabs to good effect' are clearly experienced players using good gear. They are saying, almost to a man, I did it and I know it sounded good. So these reasons are false?

[Conan]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1333654728' post='1604994']
You will notice that the people saying 'I mixed cabs to good effect' are clearly experienced players using good gear. They are saying, almost to a man, I did it and I know it sounded good. So these reasons are false?
[/quote]

Just because a certain combination sounded "good" doesn't maen that a different combination wouldn't have sounded better. Unless you can to a proper A vs B test with all other factors constant, it's just not a fair test and therefore rather meaningless.

If it sounds good to your ears, good - keep using it by all means. But don't diss another set-up of which you have no experience.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Conan

[Conan]

[quote name='police squad' timestamp='1333627782' post='1604475']Help!!! don't we mix 10s and 15s anymore.
[/quote]

Of course we do! It's just that our reasons for doing so are slightly different now!

[stevie]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1333655403' post='1605007']
Just because a certain combination sounded "good" doesn't maen that a different combination wouldn't have sounded better. Unless you can to a proper A vs B test with all other factors constant, it's just not a fair test and therefore rather meaningless.

If it sounds good to your ears, good - keep using it by all means. But don't diss another set-up of which you have no experience.
[/quote]
How likely do you think it is that the players using a 15 and 10s have never used a 4 x 10? Of course, they have, but they are happy with what they've got. Nor are they dissing those who choose to use multiples of the same driver. All the shouting is coming from those who insist that you should not mix drivers.

I'm waiting for someone to give me a good reason why 15s and 10s don't work. "I tried it once and it sounded sh*t" doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

[ThomBassmonkey]

The GK reliability issues are seriously over-played. There was a dodgy batch of MB combos where a few went faulty, GK sorted it out quickly and there's been very few reliability issues since.

I've never had a problem with their stuff and I've never heard of anyone else having problems with it first hand.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1333654346' post='1604985']
It is all down to how the cab is (not the driver size) & that doesn't paint a very good picture of Hartke cabs
[/quote]

Yes, they were each a bit disappointing on their own, but were truly awesome when paired together.

They were the XL cabs. The 210 was a lot shallower than the 115, supporting the fact it was the cab, not the driver size, that made it weak sounding. And the 115 didn`t have a tweeter, hence the lack of top end.

I really think those two were made to be paired with each other - a good way of getting two sales, perhaps?

[stevie]

You'll find a similar pattern in just about any industry you care to mention. Larger companies have a wide product range; smaller companies have a more limited product range. Do these companies want you to buy more than one of their products? Quite likely.

[JTUK]

I use 2x210's and pretty much changed from 115 and 210 as the 115 was not, IMV, a single cab solution, was damn heavy and too big to get in the car without such a lot of hassle.
I went to 2x210 and I don't feel that I have lost anything, I still get a monstrous and very focused low B which IIRC, is better than the 115/210 set-up...altho I am very impressed with tapes made from those gigs re bass sound.

Would I go back to a 115..? no,
The biggest single factor was that it wasn't useable on its own.

It is no surprise to me that the likes of Berg don't make 15 cabs, altho they used to.
I've always been convinced that 410 is the best for bass anyway, so a 2x210 is getting as close to that as you can, IMO

But knowing the OP, I can see why their choice is a very good one for them. I look forward to hearing it.

[dmccombe7]

EDIT :- JTUK beat me to it again with the Berg 15 comment. Damn - I'm too slow at typing.

Berg used to do a 15 cab. Not now though but they are a small relatively new company.
I was a traditional mixed cab person for many yrs and it worked for me because I felt that the combinations gave me a fuller range.
Had 2x10 and seperate 1x15's, 1x12&15 in same cab, 4x10 with seperate 15 and when i looked at new kit i decided light weight was for me and went for the mid-point 12" cabs by Bergantino. I think my sound lacks a little lo-mid punch at times and the 10" cabs might have been a better option for me. It might simply be down to the tube pre-amp type sound and I'm still experimenting with that.
I would now agree that the modern speaker has a far greater range than those from 70/80's where a speaker was specifically designed with a frequency in mind.
I've read that the 12 is the modern 15 and the 10 is the modern 12 and that's kinda stuck in my mind. Based on that I'm looking for a little more mid and the 10's might suffice.
The Berg 12's can and do give a clear wide ranging sound. I have bought Karlfer's Berg HT322 with a 12 and 2x10's in same cab with tweeter in hope that it will give me the mid punch i have in my head.

All of the combinations i tried including custom cabs worked for me at the time and i guess that if you like what you are hearing then end of discussion really.
I would certainly recommend the Berg cabs but they ain't cheap.

I would also recommend the GB streamliner amps. Nice warm valve sound yet very lightweight.

Dave

Edited April 6, 2012 by dmccombe7

[stevie]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1333702915' post='1605384']
Would I go back to a 115..? no,
The biggest single factor was that it wasn't useable on its own.
[/quote]
I'm currently using a single 15 and, even though the frequency response is flat to nearly 4k, I find it difficult to hear what I'm playing when I'm up close (for obvious reasons). However, I hate the idea of having to carry four magnets around - so I've added an eight-inch midrange in a separate cab, crossed over at 800Hz. The on-axis frequency response of the pairing is virtually identical to that of the single 15, but subjectively there's a lot more top-end clarity which is audible up close and throws better in-room. I previously used a 2 x 12 which was a lot bigger, but this is a much better solution IMO. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

[JTUK]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1333704077' post='1605408']
EDIT :- JTUK beat me to it again with the Berg 15 comment. Damn - I'm too slow at typing.

Berg used to do a 15 cab. Not now though but they are a small relatively new company.
I was a traditional mixed cab person for many yrs and it worked for me because I felt that the combinations gave me a fuller range.
Had 2x10 and seperate 1x15's, 1x12&15 in same cab, 4x10 with seperate 15 and when i looked at new kit i decided light weight was for me and went for the mid-point 12" cabs by Bergantino. I think my sound lacks a little lo-mid punch at times and the 10" cabs might have been a better option for me. It might simply be down to the tube pre-amp type sound and I'm still experimenting with that.
I would now agree that the modern speaker has a far greater range than those from 70/80's where a speaker was specifically designed with a frequency in mind.
I've read that the 12 is the modern 15 and the 10 is the modern 12 and that's kinda stuck in my mind. Based on that I'm looking for a little more mid and the 10's might suffice.
The Berg 12's can and do give a clear wide ranging sound. I have bought Karlfer's Berg HT322 with a 12 and 2x10's in same cab with tweeter in hope that it will give me the mid punch i have in my head.

[/quote]

Interesting that you have now got the HT 332 and 2xAE112, IIUC.

I would think there would be quite a lot of crossover there as the AE112 is not mid shy by any means, so it does a good job of cutting through, IMO. And I don't mean 'cut' as in a volume war
I think my 2x210's do this job a little better but I need more time to be definitive on this...but it could be that the AE112 is lacking down below.
They are nowhere near as big down low as GS112's for example... but then the GS needed a lot of poke from me to file up a mid hole. Funnily enough, they ( GS112) were perfect with new strings on... but lacking without that presense.

It would be intersting to see how you compare the HT322 and the AE112's as I'd expect the HT cab to have better higher range..which as I said, isn't what the AE112's lack.
Maybe the 210 will add the low..but I really think 10's get on to another level when there are 4 or them.

I don't use any or my cab pairings singularly..unless for a REAL quiet gig..and I mean quiet

Having said that..I have PA support tonight and I am wondering which cabs to take...

[dmccombe7]

I'm more than likely gonna use the HT322 alone with AE112's as portable back up if required depending on gig. The HT is 4ohm.
I have ran my Warwick amp into an Ampeg 8x10 to see how it all sounded along with my GB and Berg 112's.
Oddly the Ampeg and Warwick gave it more bottom end or it could simply have been the fact there was more speaker displacement and it just felt bigger or fuller. Volume on both amps decreased a fair bit when running both. Completely different types of rig but overall it was a very full and clear sounding set up if not a little big to be humphing around without a road crew.

I'm kinda still in experimental mode with the GB and Berg 112's. Love the sound but occasionally i feel something is lacking. It could well be that it is the number of actual speakers rather than a size of speaker if that makes sense.

The other thing with the HT cab is that it isn't rear ported although has a front port and that may affect the sound.
The other difference will be the type of speakers - although the AE's are 12's they are Neodymium whereas the HT are i believe ceramic but could be wrong on that. That will also affect the sound a bit IMO.

Don't pick the HT cab up until tomorrow.

I'll keep you posted as to my findings.

Dave

Edited April 6, 2012 by dmccombe7

[chris_b]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1333713744' post='1605578']
....The other difference will be the type of speakers - although the AE's are 12's they are Neodymium whereas the HT are i believe ceramic but could be wrong on that. That will also affect the sound a bit IMO....[/quote]

The HT is ceramic. The design of the cab will have more of an influence on the sound than the type of magnet.

The guys on TB rate the HT322 as one of the best cabs Jim Bergantino ever made. If it wasn’t so heavy I’d have beaten you to it!

Bergantino cabs seem like they are “bass lite” but it's just a [i]different[/i] kind of bass. They don't do pillowy, woolly or muddy (choose your adj); they are tight, focused and defined down low. On stage it might sound different but stand out front and a ton of bass will punch through.

I use 2 AE112 cabs (supposedly lite on bass) and I've been told that out in the room I have a fat and full bass sound. So don’t be put off by the lack of boom or mud, you can still rattle fillings out at the back of the room.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1333713744' post='1605578']
I'm kinda still in experimental mode with the GB and Berg 112's. Love the sound but occasionally i feel something is lacking. It could well be that it is the number of actual speakers rather than a size of speaker if that makes sense.

The other thing with the HT cab is that it isn't rear ported although has a front port and that may affect the sound.
The other difference will be the type of speakers - although the AE's are 12's they are Neodymium whereas the HT are i believe ceramic but could be wrong on that. That will also affect the sound a bit IMO.
[/quote]

2 points there. You're right about the number of actual speakers as opposed to speaker size. It's about how much mass you are covering & how well the cab has been designed to distribute the sound.

As for port position? As long as the port is correct, then it wouldn't make any difference if it's on the front or back.

[JTUK]

I prefer rear ports, as it happens, but neither is a deal breaker.
On stage the AE112's are pokey but I am sure they travel well...as the gtr was out front and he noticed the sound straight away..before he noticed they were new cabs on the gig.
I'll be taking them tonight to a new place with PA FOH.
but only 'cos of the stairs, I think.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1333716566' post='1605648']
The HT is ceramic. The design of the cab will have more of an influence on the sound than the type of magnet.

The guys on TB rate the HT322 as one of the best cabs Jim Bergantino ever made. If it wasn’t so heavy I’d have beaten you to it!

Bergantino cabs seem like they are “bass lite” but it's just a [i]different[/i] kind of bass. They don't do pillowy, woolly or muddy (choose your adj); they are tight, focused and defined down low. On stage it might sound different but stand out front and a ton of bass will punch through.

I use 2 AE112 cabs (supposedly lite on bass) and I've been told that out in the room I have a fat and full bass sound. So don’t be put off by the lack of boom or mud, you can still rattle fillings out at the back of the room.
[/quote]

The HT322 was too good a bargain to miss. Plus Karl appears to be a top guy based on his feedback and his comms so far. I'm really looking forward to hearing it at full throttle (loud anyway) next rehearsal a week on Sunday.

I think that kinda stacks up with what my band say about the bass sound. That out front and where the drummer sits those AE112 cabs are by far the best bass sound they have ever heard. Maybe because I'm standing directly in front i'm just not getting the full brunt of them.

Have never compared like for like cabs between Ceramic and Neo so can't comment really. You would need to compare similar styles of cabs with same size speaker to really do justice to the trial and have them running at various volume levels.

I think we may have hi-jacked the OP's original question a bit here.
Obviously I would recommend the Berg cabs with GB head.

Dave

[police squad]

just a quick update.
Decideded against the mark traveller cabs as too many people say they are bottom end lite.
decided that I needed to try the club series, then remembered my local music shop had a s/h 1x15 std mark.
went there to have a look/listen.
he also had a club 115.
how much Dave? I asked.
£250 each cab.

so obviously I bought them both.
got a gig tonight depping for some friends, so I'll try my hartke ha3500 through them.
order my ampeg PF500 next week.
now looking for club 2x10

[xgsjx]

That's a good price! Nice find.