Crap Sound On Stage

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1332722726' post='1592220']
Remind the engineer to kick your amp over while your at it next time.
[/quote]

Only if it's making a loud, sustained farting noise, mind. That's the law.

[lurksalot]

I have most often found that if the room or stage is boomy , i can roll of a bit of the low end and raise the output so that the mids cut through. every room is different and none seem to be be the sonically passive test rooms you would test your hi fi in , if you asked everyone in the room to analyse the overall sound of the band , you would get a different response from each , in the same way that if you ask every member of the band, it would be a different response from each

[Icarus_147]

The places we play tend not to have an issue with boominess really. I don't play with a whole heap of bottom end too though (I know, I know, slap on the wrist and that >.>), so that probably helps a bit.

The sound on stage is, more often than not, f***ing awful though. One piss-weak monitor (on a good day) to serve the whole band. My amp is pretty loud, so I can always hear myself, but, seeing as the drums and my rhythm guitar player's amp are between me and the lead guitarist, I often have trouble hearing him. Luckily, I don't take many cues from him, but it's still nice to hear him ripping a solo every now and then.

[BigRedX]

I've never understood the need to try and stick everything through the foldback in smaller venues (<500 capacity). IMO at these venues foldback is solely for instruments that don't have their own amps - i.e. vocals (and maybe keyboards and sax) and the less other stuff you put through the foldback the better the singer(s) will be able the hear themselves. Unless your band is instrumental only the vocals are the most important part of the sound so lets make hearing themselves a priority for the singers. Everyone else should have an amp that is capable of filling the stage without extra help.

PS a Gramma Pad is the bassists best friend. Since I got mine it's dramatically reduced the amount of fiddling with tone controls I have to do to get a decent sound to pretty much zero. Also I've never really understood how you can expect to cure a frequency and time domain problem (stage/room acoustics) with a frequency only solution (amp tone controls).

[Rayman]

I've gone the other way, I've always loved a cutting and bright tone. The mistake I was making was that I was getting a great sound for me, on stage, while standing right in front of the amp. It sounded fantastic to me. However, during one gig I went and stood out in the venue on a table (don't ask) during a song, and it dawned on my how thin and weak my sound was near the back of the venue.

So over the last couple of years my live sound has become much more mid and bottom orientated, with just a nice little click to the strings as I play them to punch through a little, and the sound out front is a million times better.

As far as a boomy sound goes I've had that too, in a couple of larger venues with wooden floors. So for those I brighten up the tone a bit, and boost the high mids a little, and that seems to work well.

[JTUK]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1332751890' post='1592363']
I've never understood the need to try and stick everything through the foldback in smaller venues (<500 capacity). IMO at these venues foldback is solely for instruments that don't have their own amps - i.e. vocals (and maybe keyboards and sax) and the less other stuff you put through the foldback the better the singer(s) will be able the hear themselves. Unless your band is instrumental only the vocals are the most important part of the sound so lets make hearing themselves a priority for the singers. Everyone else should have an amp that is capable of filling the stage without extra help.

[/quote]

True, but it depends on the P.A and the amount of mixes. We recently had 4, which should have been ideal for our set-up and we always leave the lead vox with his own mix, ie, vox and his acoustic..
The other 3 mixes can then be taylored, but if you have a stage 100x30' that is a lot of coverage and spread and a P.A without good enough monitors to fill that is an inadequate spec, IMO.
I make sure my rig can cover it and if the engr wants me less obstrusive to his FOH, then he can give it to me in a monitor.
Basses covered, from my POV.
Sometimes we get that spec, sometimes we don't so I always ask how many mixes.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1332755034' post='1592433']
True, but it depends on the P.A and the amount of mixes. We recently had 4, which should have been ideal for our set-up and we always leave the lead vox with his own mix, ie, vox and his acoustic..
The other 3 mixes can then be taylored, but if you have a stage 100x30' that is a lot of coverage and spread and a P.A without good enough monitors to fill that is an inadequate spec, IMO.
I make sure my rig can cover it and if the engr wants me less obstrusive to his FOH, then he can give it to me in a monitor.
Basses covered, from my POV.
Sometimes we get that spec, sometimes we don't so I always ask how many mixes.
[/quote]

I wouldn't expect to find a stage that big at a sub 500 capacity venue.

Sure once you get onto bigger stages then foldback and individually mixed foldback becomes essential, but I still see too many small venues with over-complicated PA rigs which do neither the FoH on on-stage sound any favours. Most of these would be better off with less mics on the drum kit, putting the guitar(s) and bass through the PA as a back-up measure only and cutting down the foldback to a couple of wedges at the front of stage and one for the drummer and keeping them strictly for vocals and any unamplified instruments.

In the past whenever I've played on small stages in bands with complicated on-stage monitoring requirements we would always provide our own monitoring solution for everything except the vocals.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1332686846' post='1591607']
....Yet another night where the sound on stage was boomy and I couldn't hear a thing, yet everyone else thought the sound was great....
[/quote]

I have 2 regular gigs where the bass booms on stage, inspite of the gramma pad.

I have tried to EQ the boom out but that just screws up my sound for everyone else. I know that with my regular settings the bass sounds good in the audience and for most of the band so I just ignore my stage sound and concentrate on the playing.

[51m0n]

Ever thought about the distance from the back wall of the stage?

You can get great or bad additive effects as a result of the reflection off the back wall interacting with the direct radiation from the front of your rig.

Best bet is to get the front of the rig less than about 2.5ft from the back wall (gives a nice positive additive boost down in bassist land. If the rig is between 3 and 8ft from the back wall you are going to be causing grief somewhere in the bass through low mid areas, which may also result in an overly boomy sound (since they arent being cancelled out) in the room. Over 8ft from the back wall and you [i]should[/i] be fine (from this phenomena).

[chris_b]

Ha ha, on one of the gigs I [i]am[/i] within 2.5 ft of the back of the stage and 8ft puts me in the audience!!!

Real life beats theory every time!

[charic]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1332765967' post='1592713']
Ha ha, on one of the gigs I [i]am[/i] within 2.5 ft of the back of the stage and 8ft puts me in the audience!!!

Real life beats theory every time!
[/quote]

Crowdsurf your cab?

[51m0n]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1332765967' post='1592713']
Ha ha, on one of the gigs I [i]am[/i] within 2.5 ft of the back of the stage and 8ft puts me in the audience!!!

Real life beats theory every time!
[/quote]

Not so, real life includes other variables that, when properly added to the theoretical model we are building of the situation go on to eventually explain exactly what is happening

If you are within 2.5 ft of the rear wall, then you are projecting bass into the room that isnt being negatively affected by filtering with the reflection off that wall. So we can cross that possibility off. Doesnt mean that some other reflection isnt causing you woe though....

Acoustics, its a hell of a drug

What about the other venue though?

Edited March 26, 2012 by 51m0n

[Dr.Dave]

To be honest - I usually find that when I have boomy issues they vanish when the room fills up !! Not that I bother much with 'proper' soundchecks so long as my vocals don't feed back. I know where all the knobs go to give me the (very simple) sound I want and I'll maybe tweak the bass or treble a touch in an iffy room. I expect the williams are used to hearing what music sounds like in that particular room so why worry. Maybe , as musicians , we easily get lost in the pursuit of - what we consider to be - a great sound. A great sound is down to personal taste anyway so I'd rather get an easy , useable sound and concentrate on my playing.

I never have problems with sound engineers at bigger gigs. I tell them I'm a doddle - in fact our band's a doddle - I won't give them any grief . I'm easy to get on with and I make a point of thanking them for their help. I also tell them that if they prat me about I won't pay them or ever use them again. Seems fair. Sound engineers are important - but they are there to assist me , not the other way round. So long as we all understand each others place in the food chain - no problems. The PA firms that know us breath a sigh of relief when we appear because they know we won't act up like a lot of bands do.

Once or twice I've had 'your bass is too loud' to which my reply has been 'come over here and try to turn it down then ...... make my day'.

[cheddatom]

I've only played in originals bands and with some pretty weird bass sounds. I use compression and EQ to try and replicate the sounds I get in the studio. I think it works well because i've always been able to hear myself on stage and never been asked to turn down.

Whenever i've played boomy stages it's been amazing because the kick drum really rattles your balls. I've never struggled with muddy bass sounds on big hollow stages.

[neepheid]

I hate crap sound on stage. All I ask is that I can hear myself. It doesn't have to be pleasant, but it should be audible. At my last gig I could hardly hear myself, was going mostly by feel. People out front said it sounded great, but it wasn't a great gig to play, constantly wondering if what you're playing is right and realising that you'll never know so you just have to plough on and hope for the best. Disappointing.

[BOD2]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1332686846' post='1591607']
Don't worry...it'll be OK when the room fills up.'
[/quote]

That depends on the cause of the "boomy issues". If it's caused by a reverberant room (i.e. lots of sound reflections from walls, floor and ceilings) then, yes, it will improve as the room fills up and bodies block the sound reflections and effectively cover the reflecting surfaces.

But bear in mind that higher frequency sounds are more likely to be absorbed by the audience - the longer wavelenghts of the lower frequencies have a greater tendency to "bend" around bodies and so may not be absorbed as effectively.

[Mog]

I used to get fairly pissed off at it but came to the conclusion that once the sound out front is good and the drummer can hear the bass then its ok. I know my lines well enough to be able to get through a show without hearing the bass all the time.

[Monckyman]

>not getting involved

[ironside1966]

When a sound engineer says 'Don't worry...it'll be OK when the room fills up.' they mean, if it is still a problem when you are on stage I will sort it but there is little point in doing anything about it now.
if this is a constant problem and the sound is fine out front you need to look at solving this yourself.
a simple decoupling device like the Gramma might be the answer.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1332776393' post='1592951']
I used to get fairly pissed off at it but came to the conclusion that once the sound out front is good and the drummer can hear the bass then its ok. I know my lines well enough to be able to get through a show without hearing the bass all the time.
[/quote]

Ever wondered how Muse fell apart at that gig...you can't say they didn't know their parts well enough.
If you can't hear another instrument...and you rely on him being in the right place all the time ..which granted he should be, but stuff happens and a queue might be missed.
If you can't hear him..then you have no idea where he is musically... so couldn't correct a mistake if you wanted to.. you probably wouldn't be too aware of it.. if you can't hear.

That is why the Muse train wreck went on for as long as it did..

So, if you can't hear your bass but know where you are in the track that is one thing..but that will not help anyone else, should they forget a cue.
And if they can't hear you either, they will not know if you have caught the error or are oblivious..???

Hearing and good monitoring is everything, IMO. and once you have got to that stage..you might as well insist that the stage sound is good and representative.
Anything else is just way too slack in standards. Why should you expect the sound to be great out front if he can't get the monitor sound any good.
there may be excuses and circumstance, but assuming isn't a good place to start, IMO.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1332794082' post='1593303']
That is why the Muse train wreck went on for as long as it did..
[/quote]

Interesting, not being fussed either way about Muse I've not heard of that - sounds painful/amusing. Perhaps an example of how, if you're used to excellent sound, then problems will throw you more as it's not an aspect of performing that you've rehearsed? I think bands that are more used to crap sound work out different ways of dealing with cueing issues etc., I've definitely worked with a real range of people in that respect

I find gigs with audibility problems can be really hard work, and I don't enjoy them as much as a result, but I still want to be able to manage at them because on some circuits it's an unavoidable reality.

[JTUK]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1332795505' post='1593345']
Interesting, not being fussed either way about Muse I've not heard of that - sounds painful/amusing. [/quote]

It was funny but also you felt for them... and I am no Muse fan,
It was featured here as part of the click track thread, IIRC.

I must say that I am a stickler for my sound..and have spent enough money chasing it one way or another..as I guess others here have, so I don't know why anyone would accept any sound as long as they could hear
it..
Of course, there are certain problems at times, but maybe it is because I am too old to put up with it.
If I can't do it properly from my POV, and that means as good a stage sound as poss then I'd pretty soon not bother.

don't talk to me about my last gig ha ha !!!

[lurksalot]

I think that monitering and sound quality is important on stage , but so is body language, a couple of glances , eye contact, nods , raised and dropped necks , laughs and even walking across a stage , helps to bind a performance. It is sometimes not easy to identify who is wrong even when you can hear it all , and it is often a surprise to the offender , just being able to hear the racket sometimes is not enough , ..........

not that is ever me of course

[Lozz196]

Think the important things for me about sound on stage are:

Being able to hear myself
Knowing the drummer is able to hear me
Being able to hear both lead, and my backing vocs, through the monitors

If using FOH, and those three can`t be achieved, I`m afraid I consider it a failure, as using our own bands pa, putting all instruments through it, we can manage it quite easily. And invariably, our pa isn`t as good as the in house systems.

I do also like to hear the guitar, but, guitarists being the creatures that they are, that`s never usually a problem, is it?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1332796210' post='1593361']
Of course, there are certain problems at times, but maybe it is because I am too old to put up with it.
If I can't do it properly from my POV, and that means as good a stage sound as poss then I'd pretty soon not bother.

don't talk to me about my last gig ha ha !!!
[/quote]

That's the problem though, there's always that odd gig, apparently even when you're Muse! I agree it's so much better to have good (not just 'passable') sound, but I feel from a personal pride point of view that I need to be able to cope with those other times, plus if I know I can it makes me more relaxed whatever the gig, if that makes sense. I'll still look for the best sound I can get in any given situation though.