Live Sound woes.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I've been one of those idiots who takes on the job of doing the live sound for quite some time now. (Since about 1992 or so.)
I've never ever professed to be an expert, but my methods are very simple and it usually serves me well.

1) Not too loud on stage.
2) Keep it simple with the EQ, the less tweaking the better.
3) Use quality gear and let it do its job.

Current band I'm in, I'm on the point of distraction.

New lead guitarist, new drummer.

Both great players, both sound lads, but I think they're contributing to the problems I'm having.
I have some theories that I want to put to them but wouldn't mind putting them to you before I do so.

Quick rundown on what we've got.
Mackie CFX12, EV ND767 mics, Crown XLS602s, Logic System LS12s, Logic System LS115 subs.
All good enough kit.

My problem is what I would describe is low mid mud.

Drummer has a Roland TD12 kit and he likes his tom sound low and loose. Fair enough.
Lead player plays Les Pauls through a Marshall TSL and 1936 2x12" cab. He likes a big chunky sound with a fair old bottom end crunch.

Both fair enough in themselves.

Add in that I've been trying to wean the lead singer off the proximity effect for as long as I've known him and it's all starting to get a bit congested.

Add in that the drummer fancies himself as being knowledgable about live sound.
The graphic on the mixer, I generally leave flat. If it's there for anything, it's to maybe fix a problem frequency.
If we're on a wooden floor, I'll maybe take 2-3db out at 250hz to get rid of the boom from mic stands.
Other than that, the graphic's doing nothing.
The drummer's decided that smiley faces are a good idea.

It's all ended up as a big pile of low mid mud.

I want the graphic back to flat.
I want the guitarist to lose a bit of the bottom end thud from his sound.
I want the drummer to lose some of the bottom end off the toms.
I want the drummer to leave the graphic the f**k alone.
I'll continue to deprive the singer of proximity effect low end macho sound.

Does any of the above sound reasonable ?

I have long preached the following maxims.

1) If someone else is playing something in a certain part of the bar (timing wise), you need to find a space elsewhere.
2) If someone else is playing a part at a specific part of the audio spectrum, again you need to find a space elswhere.

I think the above is all reasonable. Lose the low mid congestion.

Thoughts anyone, before I wade in and spout forth.

Cheers

JF

[keeptrying]

sounds reasonable enough to me.
Always tricky getting others to tweak or change a sound they like without causing offence
are you in a position where you could record a couple of songs with the sound you like
and the same songs with the other sound to give a comparison?
all the best with keeping a happy band.

[JTUK]

All sounds reasonable to me.... but it seems that opinions in the band 'differ'...so I'd ask if anyone else thinks the sound is good.

If so..you may have to experiment to proove your config is better than theirs... i.e back-to-back sound-checks
but if they can't hear or don't know or agree, then this will be a long fight.

[discreet]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1332691497' post='1591685']
Does any of the above sound reasonable ?
[/quote]

Yes.

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1332691497' post='1591685']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The drummer's decided that smiley faces are a good idea[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Oh dear. I'd be tempted to say, 'I won't tell you how to play the drums, if you don't...' etc.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I do have another ace up my sleeve.

I've been recording all the gigs...

I've got a pair of Adats slaved together and I'm recording it all via the direct outs onto individual tracks, so I can mix later.
I then import it into Sonar via my RME DIGI9636 sound card (16 simultaneous ins via lightpipe form the adats.)

Anyway, playing with these recordings tells me that there's an overabundance of stuff happening below 400hz.
The minute I filter that out, it all becomes clear and you can hear individual parts.

I'll may go for that approach.
Here's how it does sound / here's how it can sound.

Thanks for the input so far chaps.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1332691497' post='1591685']
My problem is what I would describe is low mid mud.

The drummer's decided that smiley faces are a good idea.

It's all ended up as a big pile of low mid mud.

I want the graphic back to flat.
I want the guitarist to lose a bit of the bottom end thud from his sound.
I want the drummer to lose some of the bottom end off the toms.
I want the drummer to leave the graphic the f**k alone.
I'll continue to deprive the singer of proximity effect low end macho sound.

Does any of the above sound reasonable ?

[/quote]

It all sounds more than reasonable. Both the guitarist and drummer are making the old mistake of making sure each of their instruments sound good as solo instruments, rather than sounding good as instruments in a band.

Admittedly I`ve not got much sound engineering experience (well none actually) but whenever our band put drums through the pa, we either leave eq flat, or if anything, we remove a bit of bottom end, so that they are nice and sharp and have attack.

Most guitars sound better on their own with more bass, but in the mix of a band - reduce it.

Putting all the above together, I`m not surprised you have a durge in the lows/low-mids. I`d also be willing to bet at some point someone (usually a guitarist) will ask you to reduce the low end on your bass for "more definition". Forgetting they are the treble instrument.

[51m0n]

Drummer doesnt know dick about sound then.

Tell him I said so

[JohnFitzgerald]

I'll go forward with my original approach then.
Clairfy things to everyone, but with a degree of tact.

To my mind, the upper mid range is critical in giving instruments a real voice.
I think that's what they're not quite getting.

As a slight asides, when we played friday night, I stuck completely with the bridge pickup on my jazz.
That will maybe tell you of the part of the audio spectrum that [i]I [/i]was trying to live in.
You can't beat that upper mid honk for poking its nose through the mud.

[markstuk]

That would be part of my approach.. I would also get a recording made by a zoom or equivalent digital recorder to show what it sounds like in the room.. Belt and braces...

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1332696963' post='1591781']
I do have another ace up my sleeve.

I've been recording all the gigs...

I've got a pair of Adats slaved together and I'm recording it all via the direct outs onto individual tracks, so I can mix later.
I then import it into Sonar via my RME DIGI9636 sound card (16 simultaneous ins via lightpipe form the adats.)

Anyway, playing with these recordings tells me that there's an overabundance of stuff happening below 400hz.
The minute I filter that out, it all becomes clear and you can hear individual parts.

I'll may go for that approach.
Here's how it does sound / here's how it can sound.

Thanks for the input so far chaps.
[/quote]

[discreet]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1332750505' post='1592343']
I would also get a recording made by a zoom or equivalent digital recorder to show what it sounds like in the room...
[/quote]

Great idea, and I tried it once myself in a covers band - 'this is the original, and this is us murdering it...' but for this to work the band have to be interested/open minded/sensitive enough to make the connection, or even be bothered to listen to the recordings in the first place! Beyond belief I know, but there it is. Trying to get people to change their ways or even to admit there may be a problem with what they're doing is like herding cats. I gave up in the end, life's too short to bother with people who won't see the bleeding obvious! Good luck!

[markstuk]

Oh I would believe you ... I left a band recently simply because a guitarist did'nt understand that playing with other humans on a stage rather than noodling to himself in his house required different settings on his overmodelled Roland magic box.... To be fair his tantrums about not having enough time to change patches between each song also had an effect..

[discreet]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1332754334' post='1592412']
...his tantrums about not having enough time to change patches between each song also had an effect..
[/quote]

Ha! I think Jean-Paul Sartre said it, 'L'enfer, c'est les autres'.

[markstuk]

And as the germans would say "genau".... :-) I'm not talking about a few seconds here, sometimes more than a minute...

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1332754574' post='1592420']
Ha! I think Jean-Paul Sartre said it, 'L'enfer, c'est les autres'.
[/quote]

[discreet]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1332754703' post='1592422']
I'm not talking about a few seconds here, sometimes more than a minute...
[/quote]

I would ask, 'Why, for Christ's sake?!' but probably better not.

[BigRedX]

Surely it's simply a question of pressing the button to call up the next patch? That's the whole point of these devices.

[markstuk]

You'd think so ....

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1332755227' post='1592441']
Surely it's simply a question of pressing the button to call up the next patch? That's the whole point of these devices.
[/quote]

[JohnFitzgerald]

For guitarist calling up patches, replace with.

Drummer fannying about with individual pad sensitivity settings on V drum module.
It goes from no trigger at all -/ low tom blows the back wall out.

You'd think it would be set and forget.

I've already spoken to one of the other guys and he's fine with my thoughts.

[Dave Vader]

You are right.

That is all.