Should the drummer keep time?

[MetricMike]

For most styles of music for most of the time it surely must be the drummers job to keep time, with the rest of the band locking in to his/her timing. Sticking with my idea of timing while the drummer and the rest of the band follow theirs is just going to lead to trainwrecks, even if I am "right" and they are "wrong". If it isn't the drummer who is the main timekeeper then how do you deal with situations where the groove of the song means that the bass or guitar needs to be slightly in front of or behind the beat?

Personally when playing guitar (as I do most of the time) I try and lock into the hi-hat and snare, and when playing bass (as I do occassionally) then it's the bass drum that is my guide.

In almost all cases (there are rare occasions when the music demands otherwise), it's the drummers job to keep time, and the job of the rest of the band to play to the drummers timing.

[Davo-London]

[quote name='bigd1' timestamp='1332938340' post='1595108']
I find this unberlevable as a question on a musicians forum, although I agree with the statment all the band should be able to keep time.
Bit of a basic no brainer sort of question though
[/quote]

I'm a drummer-bassist. Trust me there's lots of "musicians" that should never play with a drummer. They have absolutely no concept of maintaining a tempo. So as a drummer I have a dilemma, should I stick with the tempo and clash with the lead or go with the flow?

I nearly always "go with the flow" because the alternative is too depressing. If you think this is an unbelievable (spelling) question then I suggest you have a look at your own timing. Most bassist are surprising poor at keeping tempo in my experience.

Davo

[Davo-London]

[quote name='MetricMike' timestamp='1333626598' post='1604445']
In almost all cases (there are rare occasions when the music demands otherwise), it's the drummers job to keep time, and the job of the rest of the band to play to the drummers timing.
[/quote]

I'd go with that. I've never experienced it, but I'd be happy to go with that.

Davo

[Davo-London]

Usual drum-bashing going on in this thread, which is depressing. What team players you are!

Listen, as a drummer you can play on the button, you can play the hats on the beat and move the snare just ahead or behind the beat. Or you can do the same with the kick drum. There are a zillion options as a drummer. Learning the drums is a life long learning experience. It's not like the bass. With decent tuition and practice you can become a useful and dependable bassist after say 3-5 years. In drums this doesn't happen - if you maintain a practice routine you just keep getting better. World class drummers like Vinnie Colaiuta keep striving to improve. It never ends there's so many permutations.

Talk to your drummer and see where he is in his journey.

Peace
Davo

[peteb]

A good drummer doesn't necessarily need outstanding chops but must have good time and feel and should also be able to ‘drive a band’ i.e. dictate the groove and make everyone play in time with him

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1332947845' post='1595323']
I wonder how some people would go on if the drummer was to deliberately turn the beat around or displace
the accents? If you don't have your time solid you'll end up with a train wreck.
[/quote]
But isn't that pretty much like saying if you intentially drive a train off a bridge then you're going to get a train wreck??

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1332962142' post='1595641']
Classical composers and conductors treat musical tempo is a flexible entity, as have some rock bands. For instance, 'WInd Cries Mary' by Hendrix occasionally stumbles along, but the whole band stumbles together, so the fluctuating tempo evolves into something many of call 'feeling the beat' or the song.

Other songs almost make a feature of a granite solid tempo, such as Toto playing Rosanna.
[/quote]
There is a difference between someone of undoubted musicality and originality with a slightly suspect drummer and a top quality group of musicians with superiour playing values!

The first example relies on a unique talent that few have ever equalled producing a performance so definitive that you can ignore a less than perfect rhythm section, whereas the second sets a standard that you as a musician can at least aim for……

Edited April 5, 2012 by peteb

[KennysFord]

What do you do if your drummer keeps speeding up !
I've been playing with my current Blues Band for just over a year and I'm getting to the point of frustration (I'm very patient) because no matter what, he speeds up on nearly every track we do. I've come to the point where I no longer go with him any more just to see how long it takes him to realise.
He's a lovely guy and I'm loathed to call him out on it, I lost a mate (drummer)over this before and I'm worried he'll have a hissy If I do. The times when we are playing together as a "rhythm section" are few and far between, especially on the funkier stuff we do. He struggles with swung beats and shuffles too, pretty fundamental stuff for a Blues Band. He played at a jam night the other week and someone videod it and put it on youtube. The tempo starts of at 130 and after 3 minutes it's up to 150.
I'm relieved I went home early and was not there to be a part of it.

[TimR]

[quote name='Davo-London' timestamp='1333662964' post='1605168']


I'm a drummer-bassist. Trust me there's lots of "musicians" that should never play with a drummer. They have absolutely no concept of maintaining a tempo. So as a drummer I have a dilemma, should I stick with the tempo and clash with the lead or go with the flow?

I nearly always "go with the flow" because the alternative is too depressing. If you think this is an unbelievable (spelling) question then I suggest you have a look at your own timing. Most bassist are surprising poor at keeping tempo in my experience.

Davo
[/quote]

That's an interesting comment regards going with the flow. Maybe that's the real issue some of us are seeing regards speeding up.

On a number of occasions during rehearsals our lead guitarist will come in a beat early/late on a solo. I'll always try to stop the song and rehearse the section but the drummer will often just skip/add the beat so he is back in time with the guitarist which causes the rest of us to do the same. Usually The drummer and I change at the same time, I think we work well together, but the rhythm guitarist is another matter.

Depressing? If it's a regular issue, and you're planning on playing music for people to dance to, it needs to be addressed.

[nottswarwick]

None of you will be surprised to learn that most of my drum student are unable to play consistently to a click. It is the biggest area we generally work on, but sometimes it is hard to convince them to spend 20 mins each day grooving to a click.

I often drum live, and usually find that I have to supply a hats chick or something when the drums are not playing, just to keep it together. So yes, my job as drummer has to be to keep time.

With regard to tempo, I have a Tama Rhythmwatch metronome clamped below my hats. This has a big knob for instant access to tempos and I write them on my set list. I have it silent but use the flashing lights to count every song in. I know that the tempo is consistent night to night, but I don't follow it once started, as usually subtle tempo shifts help a song to breathe.

So the answer is, in most of my bands, yes.

[Davo-London]

[quote name='kennyrodg' timestamp='1333699496' post='1605337']
What do you do if your drummer keeps speeding up !
I've been playing with my current Blues Band for just over a year and I'm getting to the point of frustration (I'm very patient) because no matter what, he speeds up on nearly every track we do. I've come to the point where I no longer go with him any more just to see how long it takes him to realise.
He's a lovely guy and I'm loathed to call him out on it, I lost a mate (drummer)over this before and I'm worried he'll have a hissy If I do. The times when we are playing together as a "rhythm section" are few and far between, especially on the funkier stuff we do. He struggles with swung beats and shuffles too, pretty fundamental stuff for a Blues Band. He played at a jam night the other week and someone videod it and put it on youtube. The tempo starts of at 130 and after 3 minutes it's up to 150.
I'm relieved I went home early and was not there to be a part of it.
[/quote]

Explain nicely the situation or record it and tell the drummer later that you checked and the tempo went from A to B - then ask to practice with a metronome. If a drummer is offended by this then he's not on the journey I'm talking about. You may have little choice but to find another drummer.

Davo

[Davo-London]

I use an app on my iphone for a metronome.

However, live I find it all happens too fast to really use it!!!

Davo

[TimR]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1333702784' post='1605379']
....sometimes it is hard to convince them to spend 20 mins each day grooving to a click.

.. I have to supply a hats chick or something when the drums are not playing, just to keep it together.

...usually subtle tempo shifts help a song to breathe.

So the answer is, in most of my bands, yes.
[/quote]

I wonder how many bass players and other musicians practice to a click. I've not for a while. In fact I've probably not picked up my bass outside of rehearsals for a while now

You HAVE to provide a hihat? Is this because you are asked or because the musician goes wildly out or just because you feel you need to.
There's a cover of a well known LedZep tune that features hats over the intro which completely destroys the feel that the original LedZep tune had. I'll try to dig them up. I've asked my drummer not to do this over my bass intros, or count me in as it feels like I'm at school. He agreed with no discussion saying hd didn't know why he did it as I didn't need it. (which made me feel all warm and cuddly )

Letting the song breathe is an altogether different discussion and it's different to getting faster and faster until the singer suffocates and falls off the front of the stage.

[nottswarwick]

Yep, guitarist races off or is too slow - suspicious minds, sex on fire, to name but 2.

[TimR]

You'll probably find that he's starting too quickly and trying to play too many notes.

I've no idea how many notes our guitarist is trying to squeeze into the intro of suspicious minds but it's certainly not what was written.

I've never heard a band play the intro to sex on fire properly yet. Isn't the accent on the second half beat of the bar or something awkward?

[discreet]

[quote name='Davo-London' timestamp='1333663904' post='1605186']
...Learning the drums is a life-long learning experience. It's not like the bass...
[/quote]

Holy crap, that's thirty-eight years I've wasted, then!

[TimR]

Lol. One drummer I played with must have got a lift to the station and is still waiting for the train.

[JayPH]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1333702784' post='1605379']
None of you will be surprised to learn that most of my drum student are unable to play consistently to a click. It is the biggest area we generally work on, but sometimes it is hard to convince them to spend 20 mins each day grooving to a click.

I often drum live, and usually find that I have to supply a hats chick or something when the drums are not playing, just to keep it together. So yes, my job as drummer has to be to keep time.

With regard to tempo, I have a Tama Rhythmwatch metronome clamped below my hats. This has a big knob for instant access to tempos and I write them on my set list. I have it silent but use the flashing lights to count every song in. I know that the tempo is consistent night to night, but I don't follow it once started, as usually subtle tempo shifts help a song to breathe.

So the answer is, in most of my bands, yes.
[/quote]

I suggested that our band should practice using a metronome and it caused such pain, anguish and disgust with the other band members that I left it. However, a metronome clamped to the drums not even clicking sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Will open this ugly can of worms again on Sunday.

[wateroftyne]

Q: What do you call a drummer who can't keep time?

A: Not a drummer, that's for sure.

If you find yourself up against one of these, I either bite your tongue and soldier on, sack him, or leave the band. Life's too short to educate drummers who can't keep time.

[Davo-London]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1333733570' post='1605908']
Holy crap, that's thirty-eight years I've wasted, then!
[/quote]

I expected this response. I genuinely think they are different. I've been playing bass for 35 years and I know a lot of them have not really counted as improvement years. But the changes are now very subtle as you would expect. There's still plenty of improvement capacity left - don't think otherwise. On drums I am striving to improve each month. I have to. I can't stand still.

Davo

[kjb]

The drummer sets the tempo, and the band should play to that. If he's speeding up or slowing down, then that's poor playing. Being on or behind the beat is feel, not a timing issue.
I hate it when I play with drummers whose timing is poor, ie 1/8 notes aren't 1/8 notes etc. A drummer I did some gigs with a couple of years ago was awful. I had to stop playing and just hold a note when he did a fill, I never knew where the next 'one's was going to be, it was never where it was supposed to be. He couldn't quite understand that playing a fill of maybe 1/8ths or 1/16ths across the kit, they were supposed to be in specific subdivisions of the bar. To his mind as long as he hit his drums 8 times during a fill then he was doing it right.

I spend probably 95% of my practice playing to a metronome, and I always spend part of the time with it set at a quarter of whatever tempo I want to play at, so it's just playing on one beat per bar, and I move that beat around, and sometimes have it on an off beat.