Thinking in Jazz - the process dissected

[Bilbo]

Just wanted to draw people's atention to a really great book on the process of playing jazz. This is not a 'theory' book in the normal sense as it contains no scales, chords or anything of that type. It is about the things that need to be dealt with if you are to play Jazz. The book is called ' Thinking in Jazz: The Infinite Art of Improvisation (Chicago Studies in Ethnomusicology' by Paul F Berliner and is available on Kindle for just over £11. There are no dots in it so it should transfer to Kindle ok.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thinking-Jazz-Improvisation-Ethnomusicology-ebook/dp/B004M8S3XW/ref=sr_1_15?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1332945587&sr=1-15

[thisnameistaken]

Bilbo you know stuff about jazz, right? I occasionally come across these little nuggets of info about what scale is useful for a given type of chord, or what type of chord can be substituted for another type of chord, and I wonder: Do jazz players really remember all that stuff and recall and apply that knowledge as the chords go by?

Because I sometimes struggle to even find the intervals of the next chord reliably if they're going by too fast, so I think the chances of me remembering all these bonus ideas are pretty slim.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1332958805' post='1595585']
Because I sometimes struggle to even find the intervals of the next chord reliably if they're going by too fast, so I think the chances of me remembering all these bonus ideas are pretty slim.
[/quote]

Honestly, it just takes a bit of work and you start to get there. I don't think its really much more daunting than a beginner bassist asking "do you experienced guys really know all the notes to the 50 songs you do for your wedding setlist?"

Bilbo---would you recommend the book as a good "general music interest" book or is it more for the serious jazzer? I used to be quite into jazz but whilst I'm still a listener I don't really ever play it anymore.

[Doddy]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1332969295' post='1595781']
Honestly, it just takes a bit of work and you start to get there. I don't think its really much more daunting than a beginner bassist asking "do you experienced guys really know all the notes to the 50 songs you do for your wedding setlist?"
[/quote]
Pretty much this.
I can only speak for myself,but when I'm playing I'm not thinking "A7...A,C#,E,G" or whatever. I've spent enough
time studying and playing that I know how the chords are constructed and how to recognise II-V-I and that kind
of thing so I can just get on with playing without consciously thinking about every detail.
Of course there are times,usually when I'm soloing,where I might think "Oooh,I can play this really cool Lydian
lick I've been practising",but generally I don't want to be thinking about every little detail.

[Bilbo]

The book I recommended is a very good source for the answers to tnit's question but, in a nutshell, for me, the answer is 'all of the above'. If Iam playing a tune I know well, it is more likely that I will relax and play more 'intuitively' because I know the changes well. If, however, I am playing something new that I haven't seen before, I am more likely to be in a 'conscious theory' mode. Often, if I am playing a tune I kind of know, I will play half of it in relaxed mode and half (the middle 8 of Have You Met Miss Jones?) using consciously applied theory. Strangely, I often use theory more consciously when I am playing walking lines.

But there are examples where I am playing along with a sax plyer who keeps playing a little riff and I can consciously process the m,elody and harmonise it, creating a nice little improvised effect, a 'yeah' moment . Often, it is a case of 'hearing' what someone else is doing harmonically so you can react to it. I guess it is like understanding the written word. We don't process all of the grammar, we just know what it means but, if we are trying to hear or say something important or complicated, we are more likely to pause and consider our next sentence.

The book I recommended is massive and incredibly detailed; not a light read at all but at £11 Kindle price, it is enormously good value..

[urb]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1332999134' post='1595927']
The book I recommended is a very good source for the answers to tnit's question but, in a nutshell, for me, the answer is 'all of the above'. If Iam playing a tune I know well, it is more likely that I will relax and play more 'intuitively' because I know the changes well. If, however, I am playing something new that I haven't seen before, I am more likely to be in a 'conscious theory' mode. Often, if I am playing a tune I kind of know, I will play half of it in relaxed mode and half (the middle 8 of Have You Met Miss Jones?) using consciously applied theory. Strangely, I often use theory more consciously when I am playing walking lines.

But there are examples where I am playing along with a sax plyer who keeps playing a little riff and I can consciously process the m,elody and harmonise it, creating a nice little improvised effect, a 'yeah' moment . Often, it is a case of 'hearing' what someone else is doing harmonically so you can react to it. I guess it is like understanding the written word. We don't process all of the grammar, we just know what it means but, if we are trying to hear or say something important or complicated, we are more likely to pause and consider our next sentence.
[/quote]

I couldn't have described this better myself Rob - like you I tend to think more when I'm walking lines - I guess because when you're laying it down behind the other musos you have play a constant, and hopefully, flowing series of musical ideas, at least when you are soloing you have the option of stopping, leaving space and starting from a new bar/place if you mess up! Hence I guess that enables you/we/me to be able to feel freer when soloing... oh the irony

Also like you I find when I'm playing with a sax player and they rattle off some mad descending run that I would never normally think of in 'bass' terms I've suddenly found myself playing a similar line, without really thinking about it, afterwards in my solo - and all this stuff really come together when you are completely relaxed and really deep in the 'zone', and on those rare occasions when this happens - anything seems possible... I'll be working this crap for the rest of my life for sure.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1332980001' post='1595906']

Pretty much this.
I can only speak for myself,but when I'm playing I'm not thinking "A7...A,C#,E,G" or whatever. I've spent enough
time studying and playing that I know how the chords are constructed and how to recognise II-V-I and that kind
of thing so I can just get on with playing without consciously thinking about every detail.
Of course there are times,usually when I'm soloing,where I might think "Oooh,I can play this really cool Lydian
lick I've been practising",but generally I don't want to be thinking about every little detail.
[/quote]

I agree. I liken playing jazz (musically) to reading words. At the start, you break everything down (I.e C-a-t) and then gradually you start seeing words rather than letters and eventually, not just the words but the context too. That's when you can start adding creativity, when you can see the bigger picture. It's also the reason why musicians often view music as an expressive language. There are a lot of similarities.

Similarly the idea of remembering a set of music is similar to an actor memorising a script and being able to add their own spin to something that has been done before. It's a different kind of creativity in that context IMO, although I do think that both are skills that can be taught/learnt. The spark of creativity is what sets the true jazz legends apart from the everyday jazz player.

Edited March 29, 2012 by skej21

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1332958805' post='1595585']

Because I sometimes struggle to even find the intervals of the next chord reliably if they're going by too fast, so I think the chances of me remembering all these bonus ideas are pretty slim.
[/quote]

a lot of it does become mechanical and ear training plays a big part - once your ears can recognise pitch accurately AND place your figures at that pitch on the fretboard the process becomes much more automatic and gives your brain more space to actively think about exotic matters such as chord substition and modal scales

to illustrate an analogy, think of a typist - when they get very experienced you will see a typist listening to a dictation/recording whilst typing away without looking at the keyboard because the brain has learnt through constant repetition exactly where each letter is positioned on the keyboard - the whole process becomes automatic
once that typist has mastered touch typing then (assuming they were multi-lingual) if you asked them to type up your dictation in another language they would be able to concentrate on the translation much better as the touch typing aspect is totally automatic

ear training is the key imo - not just names of notes on the fretboard but more importantly knowing their pitch too, and you find the concious thinking part of your brain will be much clearer to remember all the other stuff about modes and susbtition

hope that make sense or am i waffling as usual?

[Bilbo]

Get this: when I type, I use four fingers on my left hand and two fingers and the thumb on me right hand. And who said bass playing skills weren't transferable?

[thisnameistaken]

FWIW my drummer just asked me if I wanted to go to a jazz jam night with him, I said I wasn't good enough at playing jazz, so he said he's going to get a pianist and give me some regular trio practice. Bless him.

[Bilbo]

I have been to loads of these over the years and noone is as bad as some of the people I have heard. I am talking 'can barely get a note out of a trumpet','can't play im time with other people', 'can't count 4 to a bar', lousy intonation' kind of bad. If you are intimidated, it is best to go along without your gear and watch. Then you can judge whether you are up for it. A lot of jam sessions are as much a 'have a go' opportunity and, to be blunt, very few hard core pros go so you have no worries about being humiliated.

For me, rule number one if you are running a jazz jam is to be approachable and non-judgemental. Anyone who looks down on a person because they are a poor musician is a bit of a dick. I knwo guys who can't play anote but they run businesses, are solicitors, doctors etc. You can gain a lot form a person other than reflected muso glory.

[phil625sxc]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1333096929' post='1597178']
I have been to loads of these over the years and noone is as bad as some of the people I have heard. I am talking 'can barely get a note out of a trumpet','can't play im time with other people', 'can't count 4 to a bar', lousy intonation' kind of bad. If you are intimidated, it is best to go along without your gear and watch. Then you can judge whether you are up for it. A lot of jam sessions are as much a 'have a go' opportunity and, to be blunt, very few hard core pros go so you have no worries about being humiliated.

For me, rule number one if you are running a jazz jam is to be approachable and non-judgemental. Anyone who looks down on a person because they are a poor musician is a bit of a dick. I knwo guys who can't play anote but they run businesses, are solicitors, doctors etc. You can gain a lot form a person other than reflected muso glory.
[/quote]

+1000
[b] [url="../../user/2770-thisnameistaken/"]thisnameistaken[/url] - [b]if you're anywhere near north London I do a couple of jams which are very laid back, low key, everyone welcome type afairs that you'd be welcome to come and play at if you wanted to havea go...[/b][/b]

[thisnameistaken]

Very kind of you but I'm based in York, and whenever I do get down to London I rarely have any free time.

I really need more lessons, must get back on with that.

[Bilbo]

Lessons are great but you can gain a lot of learning 'on the job', as it were, and sitting in for a couple of tunes (you can usually call them if you are the 'new' guy) can really give you a buzz.

[blamelouis]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1332999134' post='1595927']
The book I recommended is a very good source for the answers to tnit's question but, in a nutshell, for me, the answer is 'all of the above'. If Iam playing a tune I know well, it is more likely that I will relax and play more 'intuitively' because I know the changes well. If, however, I am playing something new that I haven't seen before, I am more likely to be in a 'conscious theory' mode. Often, if I am playing a tune I kind of know, I will play half of it in relaxed mode and half (the middle 8 of Have You Met Miss Jones?) using consciously applied theory. Strangely, I often use theory more consciously when I am playing walking lines.

But there are examples where I am playing along with a sax plyer who keeps playing a little riff and I can consciously process the m,elody and harmonise it, creating a nice little improvised effect, a 'yeah' moment . Often, it is a case of 'hearing' what someone else is doing harmonically so you can react to it. I guess it is like understanding the written word. We don't process all of the grammar, we just know what it means but, if we are trying to hear or say something important or complicated, we are more likely to pause and consider our next sentence.

The book I recommended is massive and incredibly detailed; not a light read at all but at £11 Kindle price, it is enormously good value..
[/quote]

Your only one note away from a correct note - victor .

[Doddy]

[quote name='blamelouis' timestamp='1333129827' post='1597930']
Your only one note away from a correct note - victor .
[/quote]
This will be the same Victor who says on his DVD that he embraces playing wrong notes,
yet visibly winces and grimaces when he actually does it live?

Edited March 31, 2012 by Doddy