BottomE Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1333542875' post='1603211'] Weren't they promoting the BBM service? Blackberry are losing market share and need to up their game and do some marketing. What is there to be dismayed about? [/quote] I didn't say there was any logic to my outburst! Just inexplicable dismay . I got this (maybe old fashioned) view where when i want to see a band i like i go for the music and the atmosphere - being surrounded by like-minded souls etc. I don't want to go to a corporate event with "Blackberry" flashing on video screens behind the artist and men in suits lurking in the shadows and many punters guests by invitation from the corporation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1333543479' post='1603229'] I didn't say there was any logic to my outburst! Just inexplicable dismay . I got this (maybe old fashioned) view where when i want to see a band i like i go for the music and the atmosphere - being surrounded by like-minded souls etc. I don't want to go to a corporate event with "Blackberry" flashing on video screens behind the artist and men in suits lurking in the shadows and many punters guests by invitation from the corporation. [/quote] Argh! It wasn't a GIG with paying punters! It was a corporate event with entertainment, like they have at most corporate events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1333539835' post='1603126'] ...if your next album becomes really popular with, say, the BNP? Or the KKK? What are you going to do about that? [/quote] Quickly put branded Doc Martens and big white hoods in the merch catalogue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1333544081' post='1603248'] Quickly put branded Doc Martens and big white hoods in the merch catalogue! [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1333542795' post='1603208']She is very talented and a great singer, performer and songwriter.[/quote] She's pretty good on Dragon's Den as well. Edited April 4, 2012 by thisnameistaken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1333544661' post='1603259'] She's pretty good on Dragon's Den as well. [/quote] Good one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 There are of course many BCers who endorse or who are sponsored by some manufacturers and naturally have alwys used their products anyway - hence the support. But equally there are artists who will agree to have their name used with a product, persumably take the wedge then carry on as they were. Tony Iommi springs to mind for the "authorised" custom SGs he's endorsed; while all the time turning up on stage with the "Old Boy". I was told at Marshall that that's one of the reasons they never give away any gear to any of their endorsed artists - they all pay for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I don't think anyone has a problem with corporations booking bands for a gig like this. I suspect many of these big players take the gig for £1m and give the money to charity. My only problem starts when the corporate dollar starts to define content or when the artist (or whoever is being paid) starts 'promoting' a product to their fans; that feels a little manipulative, especially when the fans are kids. Its the same with big budget movies that are just toy adverts. It happens and will always happen but I think it just shows what these kinds of artists are about. Maybe artists is the wrong word, in such cases; 'sales people', 'promoters', hawkers'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1333539815' post='1603125'] Even Bach had a corporate gig really. [/quote] Was that for advertising his flower remedies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1333545234' post='1603276'] I don't think anyone has a problem with corporations booking bands for a gig like this. I suspect many of these big players take the gig for £1m and give the money to charity. My only problem starts when the corporate dollar starts to define content or when the artist (or whoever is being paid) starts 'promoting' a product to their fans; that feels a little manipulative, especially when the fans are kids. Its the same with big budget movies that are just toy adverts. It happens and will always happen but I think it just shows what these kinds of artists are about. Maybe artists is the wrong word, in such cases; 'sales people', 'promoters', hawkers'? [/quote] Blimey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1333545345' post='1603279'] Was that for advertising his flower remedies? [/quote] The jokes are coming thick and fast today aren't they! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1333545345' post='1603279'] Was that for advertising his flower remedies? [/quote] That's exactly what Bilbo was talking about. If Bach had any "artistic integrity" he would have never have done that $1m gig for the flower remedy people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='lxxwj' timestamp='1333541571' post='1603177'] I don't think Jessie J counts as an artist.. [/quote] Are you serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1333545904' post='1603295'] Are you serious? [/quote] People make all sorts of puerile, lazy, unresearched assumptions about great looking artistes who can sing, dance, perform and write to an excellent standard. I think Ixxwj must be a music journalist. Have you seen the [b]'Kate Bush is a Talentless Tart' [/b]thread ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1333546978' post='1603312'] Have you seen the [b]'Kate Bush is a Talentless Tart' [/b]thread? [/quote] I don't think Kate Bush counts as a talentless tart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1333545509' post='1603283'] Blimey. [/quote] We're getting into the Art vs Commerce debate, aren't we. Its a continuum not a case of absolutes. Few would consider music written for an advert to be Art but Art used as backing music for an advert still has integrity. The problem with people like Jesse J (I know only one song by her) is that, as 'artiists' they don't need to be told what to do by the industry because industry has already screened out the folk who would not 'do the right thing'. So, whatever she does, they will be happy because it ain't gonna be free jazz, is it? I would love it if she came out and did a prog rock cd for its own sake because, as an 'artist', that is where here muse took her Why do I think that to be unlikely PS none of this matters a jot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1333548642' post='1603353'] So, whatever she does, they will be happy because it ain't gonna be free jazz, is it? [/quote] A sentiment embraced by most of us. I mean, who in their right mind [i]wouldn't [/i]be happy? In any case, I'm not sure when all this 'artistic integrity' thing started. Was it that brief summer of love when the unwashed longhairs thought they could change the world with free love and a bong? Or those earnest folkies with their communistic drivel? Or a bunch of smacked-out jazzers who will no doubt loom large in Bilbo's forthcoming tome? Or could it have been those dodgy 19th century composers such as Herr Wagner with his arse-numbing theatrical longueurs or ol' Tin-ear Van Beethoven with his florid paeans to the ghastly Corsican? Who can say. History draws its veil over such tritsch-tratsch. Either way, primped-up poseurs with faces like cats' bottoms have long poured scorn on commercialism, little realising that 'artistic integrity' is sucker bait just like anything else. 'Ooh, heartfelt' they say. And 'Ahh, honest' while Joni Mitchell flutters her eyelashes and banks another few bob The trick is not to overcook it, as when VW sponsored a Stones tour while offering a limited-edition logo'd up 'Rolling Stones' Golf GTi. Stood out like the veritable dog's knob, it did, and earned the opprobrium of brand custodians everywhere, never mind the bedroom revolutionaries. Concepts? Truth? Holism? Give me a good, honest tune shorn of 'meaning' any day. Something like 'Drink, Puppy, Drink'. Ideally performed by Chas and Dave. Amidst all this handwringing I am reminded of the 1980's and the activist woman in the flat above me who would return from demonstrations sobbing for the 'poor people of the world' and play Hazel O'Connor over and over again until we broke in and put a gigantic scratch across the vinyl. Committed? She should have been. [color=#ffffff].[/color] Edited April 4, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1333547599' post='1603323'] I don't think Kate Bush counts as a talentless tart. [/quote] I don't think kate Bush counts, you must be thinking of Carol Voordemann. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 If the product in question was toilet cleaner then would Jessie J still promote it? And if not, why not? If you go down the road of using your music to advertise something, then surely it doesn't matter what the actual product is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1333536674' post='1602999'] When i was a nipper there always appeared to be a healthy disconnet between popular music and the corporate world. [/quote] This has never been the case. 'Artistic integrity' is a complete facade. Even the most left field bands who you like to think have managed to keep their work clear of the corporate machine have their selling point. People need to make money, music is a commodity, be under no illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 The whole Art vs Commerce debate has probably been around since, well, Art and Commerce began. Mozart was reportedly (and repeatedly) annoyed at being told what was good and what was not by his employers. There is an established theme in ethnomusicology on the issue that essentially revolves around the concept of Art music as opposed to Popular Music (much the same as that which exists in the visual Arts; Hirst vs Constable etc). People use music for different things and people write/perform music for different reasons. Personally, I write/perform because I like to. If someone pays me for it, all the better, but, if they don't, so be it. The issue is simply whether or not the motivation is the music or the money. If it is the music, you are likely to end up with something different that if it is the money. History tells us that the most interesting/progressive/experimental/challenging etc stuff is written when money is not the driver. It also tells us that that, when money is the driver, the quality is often (but not always) compromised. Other things can compromise a piece of music, such as the need to time it to a visual image ('I need 1.24 of music for the car chase scene'). Great movie music is rarely great Art music but not never. Our individual and, by debate, collective experiences tell us whether, as audience members, any of this matters. My experience (and one shared by others, bearded or otherwise) tells me that the stuff written to sell is generally, by my standards, derivative, predictable and shallow. By the standards of others, which are different to mine (not better or worse, just different), this is not the case. A great pop record is a great pop record. Its success is measured by sales figures or by the number of people dancing. Art music is not measured in that way but in others, sometimes by concensus but sometime not. So, play it at a wedding and it will mostly fail. Doesn't make it bad just being performed in front of the wrong audience. Its no more or less personal than preferring The Beatles over The Rolling Stones. There is great rock music that is Art music, its is not genre specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1333549877' post='1603390'] I don't think kate Bush counts, you must be thinking of Carol Voordemann. [/quote] Bush always counts, be it Kate or Carol. Or anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) The music vs. money thing I partially buy into, but there has been plenty of creative people that have existed within the music industry and have made wonderfully progressive music whilst generating cash for their labels. The degree to which an artist or band's creativity may have been hampered by efforts by labels to drive work out of them will never be fully understood because without the platform offered by the industry to broadcast a band's talent, hardly anyone would get to hear what is there to be offered. I would equally submit that its as much about being in the 'right place at the right time' too. Edited April 4, 2012 by risingson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote] music is a commodity [/quote] I would argue that's only the case only if someone makes money out of it. Until then, it's just the vibration of air molecules as perceived by the eardrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaypup Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1333542795' post='1603208'] Is this supposed to be a joke mate? She is very talented and a great singer, performer and songwriter. Also her bassist is a respected member of Basschat. [/quote] Do you not think it's a bit hypocritical to sing "It's not about the money, money, money" etc and then do ads for Mastercard? Fair enough, do adverts/corporate work/suck on Satan's c*ck (as Bill Hicks put it) but don't tell me it's not about the price tag! Edit:I actually love her singing, esp the big band stuff I've seen. Edited April 4, 2012 by chaypup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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