Where did slap...

[norvegicusbass]

...sort of lose its way? I must admit at the outset that I hate slap or maybe I should qualify that statement and say I hate what slap has become, an endless fuzz of barely discernible notes played as fast as is humanly possible. There was a time however when slap was done with a lot more finesse and sounded way better. Larry Graham and Robert "Pop" Popwell both shared a classy approach to slap and I have always loved that sound. However I dont really like Les Claypool or Flea. I sort of blame Mark King for the thousand notes an hour kind of playing where the beautiful growl of a Sly And The Family Stone bassline gave way to his endless tippy tapping. So is he the one to blame or do you think he elevated slap and its doing just fine?

[discreet]

I think you answered your own question. Larry Graham doesn't play at 1000mph. Those players that get in as many notes as possible (the so-called 'virtuosos') gave slap a bad name. IMHO the bass guitar is not, nor should be, a solo instrument. *hides in shed with colander on head*

Edited April 4, 2012 by discreet

[bubinga5]

i think you have to look beneath the surface... i know of some contemporary slap playing that is very cool... slap is not just loud and aggressive..imo it really doesnt have to be... Listen to Chuck Rainey on Peg... most didnt even know he was slapping..

slap can be very musical... strange you never see huge threads on tapping, or chord strumming... its just another technique...

[LukeFRC]

remember the first time you saw a footballer do a stopover dummy- that fella knew exactly what he was doing and why he needed to show some skill.
The next week down the park fellas are waving their legs all over the ball all over the pitch for no real reason.

[Roland Rock]

Yup - what Discreet said (except for the colander bit) I blame Louis Johnson

[EssentialTension]

I usually blame the drummer.

[louisthebass]

Where MK's "1,000 notes per hour" thing is concerned - it's just a "showpiece" thing that he does at L42 gigs . I doubt he thinks to himself "OMG check me out, I'm so fast at doing this". The only thing is, that a lot of people have conceived it to be "the cool slap thing to do" and have taken it beyond the pale (and can't even do it in time with a drummer..).

The other thing with MK is that he's one of the very few bass players who actually use the slap technique as part of a band's sound (it's also a shame that his fingerstyle playing is overlooked so often).

In a real world playing situation, it's not something a bass player would put all over someone's record unless it was specifically asked for (mind you, Becker & Fagen didn't want it on "Peg", got it anyway & were none the wiser until later on...).

[crez5150]

[quote name='norvegicusbass' timestamp='1333557124' post='1603548']
I sort of blame Mark King for the thousand notes an hour kind of playing
[/quote]

So many people say this..... but as stated above..... it's something he's done at gigs as a showpiece.... have a listen to any of the Level 42 albums and it's not there at all...

[D.I. Joe]

The thing I dislike most about slap is the misconception that anyone who can do it quickly is a "good" bassist. Geddy Lee doesn't slap!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1333558191' post='1603574']
Where MK's "1,000 notes per hour" thing is concerned - it's just a "showpiece" thing that he does at L42 gigs . I doubt he thinks to himself "OMG check me out, I'm so fast at doing this". The only thing is, that a lot of people have conceived it to be "the cool slap thing to do" and have taken it beyond the pale (and can't even do it in time with a drummer..).

The other thing with MK is that he's one of the very few bass players who actually use the slap technique as part of a band's sound (it's also a shame that his fingerstyle playing is overlooked so often).

In a real world playing situation, it's not something a bass player would put all over someone's record unless it was specifically asked for (mind you, Becker & Fagen didn't want it on "Peg", got it anyway & were none the wiser until later on...).
[/quote]

I just looked up a youtube video about the making of Peg, never really heard much of Steely Dan before but good video- and great groove.
Maybe slap became divorced from groove with a lot of folk who can't groove to begin with?

[Fat Rich]

It wasn't just the 1000 thumbs a second brigade that gave slap a bad name, it was everywhere for a while in the 70s and early 80s and a lot of people got tired of it. As Anthony Jackson said it became the ketchup of bass playing.

For me a good slap bass line will also sound great played with fingers or with a pick, if it relies purely on the slap technique it's probably a wasted opportunity to do something more melodic or relevant to the song. There can be a few exceptions though, but not too many!

[Doctor J]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1333557414' post='1603553']
I think you answered your own question. Larry Graham doesn't play at 1000mph. Those players that get in as many notes as possible (the so-called 'virtuosos') gave slap a bad name. IMHO the bass guitar is not, nor should be, a solo instrument. *hides in shed with colander on head*
[/quote]You only need a colander if it's to collect contributions for your newsletter, which I would like to subscribe to.

[leftybassman392]

At the risk of being picky, 1000 notes an hour isn't very fast. It's equivalent to around 17 notes a minute, or one every 4 seconds or so. I reckon even I could manage that!

[deepbass5]

I as others have been drawn to L42 and MK, only to dislike them once I had taken up the bass. Frankly the keyboard took over and the Bass part and MK became relegated to the rhythm guitar part. Louis Johnson is guilty as charged.
Any style over egged for the sake of it becomes annoying. But some can use it tastefully and it still appeals.e.g. V Wooten in 'bela fleck' applies tasteful solos. But feel Slap 'n' pop is best as it first appeared as sparse colouring to add interest to repetitive rhythm based 70's funk numbers, just icing to add a little sparkle.

[Doddy]

The thing with the really fast slap stuff is that a lot of the time it is used as a showpiece the same way as fast double bass
drums or sweep picking or circular breathing or whatever is. You get a short solo and you can play some great harmonic lines
or whatever,but break out a few bars of stupidly fast slapped stuff and you'll get a great audience reaction. Of course,you
can apply it musically but often you don't need to.

[JTUK]

[quote name='D.I. Joe' timestamp='1333558860' post='1603591']
The thing I dislike most about slap is the misconception that anyone who can do it quickly is a "good" bassist. Geddy Lee doesn't slap!
[/quote]

That is because it is easy to play a piece that jumps out even if your technique is a bit loose.
You don't get the same sort of emphasis on a fingerstyle passage because it is so much harder to be smooth enough for people to want or be able to listen to you playing solo.

And of course, not enough people listen to slap with a view to taking it somewhere, they just crash out their best riffs....along the lines of Flea and MK, typically, as they brought it closer to the masses,
and altho the latter is VERY good at it..that style of slap is well out of date or so dated.
Having said that, MK is good enough to re-invent himself and is far far more than the one-dimensional type player most would pidgeon-hole him with.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1333560076' post='1603613']
As Anthony Jackson said it became the ketchup of bass playing.
[/quote]

And he'd know as he's probably seen more ketchup than most people over the years.

[garethfriend]

is it just something that hasn't aged well? if I'm honest I can't hear someone play a slap line without thinking of the 80's.

There does seem to be a bit of a disproportionate amount of time given to "slap sound" in kit demos on youtube too which annoys me, considering 90% of the time most bassists are playing with fingers or pick it seems a bit of a waste of time to watch someone slap away for ten minutes before they go "oh yeah and this is the pick and finger style sound" briefly at the end. Muppets!

[RhysP]

[quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1333568431' post='1603775']
There does seem to be a bit of a disproportionate amount of time given to "slap sound" in kit demos on youtube too which annoys me, considering 90% of the time most bassists are playing with fingers or pick it seems a bit of a waste of time to watch someone slap away for ten minutes before they go "oh yeah and this is the pick and finger style sound" briefly at the end.
[/quote]

You're making the mistake of assuming that gear demos on Youtube are primarily about the gear & not in fact largely a dickswinging excercise where the player gets to show what a badass he is.

[Pete Academy]

I learned slap bass in the 70s. When it first emerged it was amazing. Mark King took it to another level, technique-wise. I think it's still a fantastic technique that sets bass players apart from other musicians. Just make it sound musical.

[Johngh]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1333558665' post='1603584']
So many people say this..... but as stated above..... it's something he's done at gigs as a showpiece.... have a listen to any of the Level 42 albums and it's not there at all...
[/quote]

What he said.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1333560076' post='1603613']
It wasn't just the 1000 thumbs a second brigade that gave slap a bad name, it was everywhere for a while in the 70s and early 80s and a lot of people got tired of it. As Anthony Jackson said it became the ketchup of bass playing.

For me a good slap bass line will also sound great played with fingers or with a pick, if it relies purely on the slap technique it's probably a wasted opportunity to do something more melodic or relevant to the song. There can be a few exceptions though, but not too many!
[/quote]The Ketchup of Bass playing. That is brilliant.

[Doctor J]

Slap, when played with taste (work with me) and in context, can be tolerable. The problem is not slap itself, it's the rampant and tasteless abuse of slap by people who need to move on and become the attention seeking lead guitarists they secretly yearn to be. Most of us can think of more than one occasion where it's been clumsily dropped into the most inappropriate songs and used as little more than the four string version of a Malmsteen clone showing you how quickly he can play a monotonous scale.

What turned me off slap, back in the early 90's, was when Blood Sugar Sex Magic came out and, within a couple of years seemingly every bassist over here was playing a poxy Stingray and firing their thumb at everything. From the soppiest ballad to the heaviest of Metal, you just couldn't see a band without experiencing "Look at me" syndrome. I kept away from the technique because it just annoyed me to hear it. Even recently, I went to see a Texas blues style guy on tour from England and it was all going well until, three or four songs in, the bassist whipped out his thumb and started boink-a-dinking away. Texas blues + slap? No. Stop. It doesn't work. Why would you think there's a place for slap in Texas blues? Enough, I say. It's time for taste to make a comeback and the showboating to slip into the mists of time where, hopefully, our children and our children's children don't have to feel embarassed for the guy trying to compete with the singer and guitarist and that drummer who is clearly at the wrong gig. I can handle Flea or Larry Graham doing it because they've written their music around it and it fits the lyrics are about gittin' it on and it works and that's great. It just doesn't work when you're playing a folk gig in the local boozer and you're trying to impress some boiler who's only giving you the eye because it's glass.

Slap has become like an embarassing mate who, no matter what you did, has done it better, done it sooner and wants everyone to know about it and still thinks his Timmy Mallet glasses are still in. The tragic thing is, it's probably due a comeback any day now

[OliverBlackman]

theres lots of slap out there, especially in pop stuff, where its just a simple groove and it sounds sick. I especially like it when its been cut up and re-recorded as a sample.

I think the problem is that its the fast stuff that gets the attention and all the other stuff is ignored. It's still out there but a bass cover of it won't get you 100,000 youtube hits

[garethfriend]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1333569007' post='1603784']
You're making the mistake of assuming that gear demos on Youtube are primarily about the gear & not in fact largely a dickswinging excercise where the player gets to show what a badass he is.
[/quote]

yeah, definitely get that impression. It's always the same format: open with gratuitous slapping - point out that this bass has pickups and frets - slapathon with several different EQ settings - "oh by the way you can play this bass finger style if you're not as awesome as me" - begrudging few bars of real world playing - end.

It's the bass equivalent of the guitarists fretw**k. Ok if you bring it out every now and again for a bit of showing off fine, I get that, but recording several albums worth of it that makes kittens cry.