Janek's new album

[Faithless]

For those who're saying Janek's a 'pretender', I highly recommend getting to see him playing live. Not on Youtube, but live, in 10 meter's distance. He's playing with much more fire than Had.

As for comparing him and Hadrien - I think there cant be two more different players than these two. Janek's very melodic, and nowhere as chopsy, when Feraud's playing is pretty much built around chops. He's trying to get into composing lately, but it's a long way go for him. I've heard quite a few accomplished players who're following him, and they all say they'd like to hear Feraud in like 10 years time.
In the end, I wish to see, how would a mix of Gwizdala and Feraud would look, I mean, a mix of melodic player & mature composer + great chops.

[chardbass]

Agreed. They both provoke different reactions from me- each one is positive but in a different way.
They are so different- I really enjoyed the video Janek shot after he interviewed Hadrien on his blog page.
The 2 of them just playing for fun, trading, blowing, shedding- it had a lot of respect and humour too.

[lowdown]

[quote name='chardbass' timestamp='1333732033' post='1605882']
I'd love to hear some more bop-influenced funk along the lines of Jean Pierre - his jams with Dario Deidda on YouTube show him in a different light to the usual.
[/quote]

I agree....................
Funny enough not so long ago i stumbled upon [Youtube] Marcus with Miles from the 80's at Hammersmith.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YVppBMSGlI&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YVppBMSGlI&feature=relmfu[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTgIDUM2tfU&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTgIDUM2tfU&feature=relmfu[/url]

Garry

Edited April 6, 2012 by lowdown

[funkypenguin]

I liked Janeks last album 'Space in Between' but i'm pretty underwhelmed with his new one.

I really like Janeks playing style. and his instructional videos are outstanding, but his compositions, IMHO, always seem lightweight and lacking in substance, especially in comparison to Matt Garrisons work. His latest album with Human Element is stunning

[Chris2112]

[quote name='kjb' timestamp='1333733280' post='1605907']
What I mean by saying you don't know what you're talking about is this. You state that janek is a 'pretender'. Which is a bit of an odd thing to say considering his position in the New York jazz scene. He regularly plays with Mike Stern for example, a gig he shares with Anthony Jackson, Chris Minh Doky anfRichard Bona. Now that's not a gig that gets offered to just anyone.
[/quote]

I am inclined to rate musicians on their merit, rather than their 'position' in any music scene. A fairly sensible way of doing things, I don't consider U2 to be a great rock band just because they have sold a few copies. By that logic, I can think of a few players (irrelevant to this discussion) who are big names but I wouldn't rate. Janek is just one of them. He has the chops to play a Stern gig, but I don't feel any soul in his music and he always sounds lifeless and lacklustre to me. That lack of passion is the killer, as other players have shown that high-stakes jazz fusion can be rich with energy and passion. Dominic Di Piazza...Jonas Hellborg...Stuart Hamm...VIctor Wooten...Michael Manring...etc etc; these are top flight bassists who can make fusion as emotive as a classical aria. I just don't hear it with Janek, and to that end I don't rate him.

You may have some schoolboy crush on him because he's taught a few classes at your college. Thats great, go and buy his records and get a poster of him for your bedroom wall. I won't be joining in the love fest though.

[kjb]

Question, how does a player get to the position to be playing with well respected band leaders like Mike Stern, other than on the merit of their playing ?

Also what do you think Mike Stern's reason was for hiring Janek ?

I always associate 'chops' to mean
Speed and technique. I'm pretty certain that it takes more than chops to land a gig with Mike Stern.

By the way, I'm the same age as Janek, so I certainly don't have a schoolboy crush on him, anymore than you do on the much younger and far better looking Hadrien Feraud.

[kjb]

Another thing with chops, and association of it being to do with speed of delivery rather than content.
I recently attended a master class at college presented by Matt Garrison and Reggie Washington.
I'm a huge fan of Matt's playing, I'm listening to him right now. On the night I much preferred Reggie's sololing to Matt's, it was far more melodic, and had the same lyrical phrasing that I hear in Janek's playing.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='kjb' timestamp='1333832689' post='1607245']
Question, how does a player get to the position to be playing with well respected band leaders like Mike Stern, other than on the merit of their playing ?

Also what do you think Mike Stern's reason was for hiring Janek ?

I always associate 'chops' to mean
Speed and technique. I'm pretty certain that it takes more than chops to land a gig with Mike Stern.

By the way, I'm the same age as Janek, so I certainly don't have a schoolboy crush on him, anymore than you do on the much younger and far better looking Hadrien Feraud.
[/quote]

I'm not particularly interested in giving life to this aspect of the debate, so I will paraphrase the thoughts I have already listed on here:[list]
[*]Getting top end gigs does not automatically impress me
[*]Therefore, I suspect Mike Stern probably hears something in Janek I do not
[*]That said, I do not hugely rate Mike Stern in the jazz fusion world either
[*]For me, Janek does a good impression of a top class bass player. Makes all the right moves, pulls all the right faces but ultimately I find his playing very dull, I find his music dull and possibly the ultimate expression of modern bass 'fuzak', to borrow a phrase from a certain someone. Souless, devoid of merit, quality, passion, fire...etc etc.
[/list]
You ought to have more faith in your own views rather than getting so offended by mine that you come here to crusade on Janek's behalf. Maybe next time you see him though you can tell him you stuck up for him on the internet, I'm sure he'll be very appreciative!

Edited April 8, 2012 by Chris2112

[kjb]

I have a lot of faith in my views, which is why I stick with them.
I'm certainly not in the least bit offended by what you have to say.

[stonecoldbass]

Hey guys, you might want to check out Janek's reply to the post I put up over on Talkbass, interesting response. I have replied as well but still waiting to see what he has to say. Healthy discussion all round! I'm kinda glad it didn't turn into a 'this player is much better than that player' discussion...as has kinda happened here

[kjb]

Bob Dylan was once criticised by a guy by a guy who claimed that his new songs weren't as relevant as his old ones. Dylan reportedly just said "well I'm out here writing songs, what are you doing ?"

I guess the same applies here. Janek does have these great gigs, and he does tour around the world supporting his own album and doing clinics.
It's all too easy nowadays to criticise someone's achievements, while you yourself have probably never played anywhere other than your bedroom, and rely on your mom and dad to fuel your self inflated ego by saying how brilliant you are.

[kjb]

[quote name='stonecoldbass' timestamp='1334019685' post='1609808']
Hey guys, you might want to check out Janek's reply to the post I put up over on Talkbass, interesting response. I have replied as well but still waiting to see what he has to say. Healthy discussion all round! I'm kinda glad it didn't turn into a 'this player is much better than that player' discussion...as has kinda happened here
[/quote]

Have you got a link to that ? I did look in his ask a pro bit, but couldn't see anything.

[xilddx]

[quote name='kjb' timestamp='1333661885' post='1605152']
I like it, but I like everything he's done. Each album is different which I think is cool and important.
[b]And Chris2112, no disrespect but I don't think you know what you're on about.
You don't get Janek's level by being a pretender.[/b]
[/quote]
What level are you talking about?

I just had a listen to five of the tracks off this album. Chris2112 is right. Janek has great bass skills and technical knowledge, but he really is better feeding off someone else's compositional creativity, he clearly doesn't have much wider compositional ability. This is elevator music really, it's ok, but ultimately unsatisfying, uninspiring, and derivative.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='kjb' timestamp='1334054862' post='1610108']
Bob Dylan was once criticised by a guy by a guy who claimed that his new songs weren't as relevant as his old ones. Dylan reportedly just said "well I'm out here writing songs, what are you doing ?"
[/quote]

If they don't cut the mustard, they don't cut the mustard. What worth does art have if it is just art for art's sake? Going out and writing songs seems pretty pointless to me if all you can create is dull, derivative pap. That said, many great sidemen just stick to being a sideman because they either know they don't want to pursue solo efforts or they know they don't have it in them to make anything worth listening to on their own. Not taking anything away from them as top class sidemen.

Just like Bob Dylan's lacklustre offerings, I see Janek's music as similarly irrelevant. Luckily he seems to have a few internet crusaders to fight his corner so he won't feel too upset.

[Faithless]

I think some guys are missing the point about this album with discussing 'creativity' and 'compositions'.

Janek didn't compose pretty much anything at all on his latest release - all he had was a few sketches and rough ideas to derive the stuff from. What followed next, was an impromtu jam session.
So if you're blaming him for not having the right creativity, then you're equally blaming all the other guys that were featured on the album, which includes Mark Guiliana, Jojo Mayer, Tim Miller and Justin Vasquez.

Are you sure?
Kjb is right saying that nearly everyone has the right to [negatively] criticise others' work, not to mention that no one has anything better to offer. Saying that one 'lacks creativity or his stuff is 'dull, derivative pap' and not point out why, is not a constructive criticism.
I'm not arguing about taste, but saying that the stuff is dull, is just unbearable, IMHO.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Faithless

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1334069725' post='1610455']
saying that the stuff is dull, is just unbearable, IMHO.[/quote]

To alleviate the unbearableness, I would counsel you (and kjb) not to worry about what most people say here. Much of what passes for criticism on BC is someone's well-intended (but ultimately fruitless) description of their reaction to something.

A very few of us here (certainly not me) are adequately competent to objectively critique another musician's intent using musical terms. For the rest, to whom no offence is intended, it's rather like someone saying they like - or dislike - Burger King because of the flavour. This may accurately describe their tastes and their frame of reference, but it won't tell me anything about the inherent nature of the burger.

As it is with tasty fast food, so it is with luminaries of the bass guitar. My advice would be to respond to unbearable posts by asking if the poster would like fries and a drink to go.

Edited April 10, 2012 by skankdelvar

[stonecoldbass]

Hey guys,
Here is that link for Talkbass [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f19/janeks-new-album-870390/"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f19/janeks-new-album-870390/[/url]
Check out the replies!

[kjb]

That's an really good thread. I was looking in the wrong post.
Your original opening post was very well put, and well worded.
I like Janek's reply too, about what the album is about.
Maybe one or two of the posters on here should actually listen to the album properly, after reading his reply.
I don't understand why people have to use so much time and energy being negative.

[jacko]

[quote name='kjb' timestamp='1334082424' post='1610726']

Maybe one or two of the posters on here should actually listen to the album properly, after reading his reply.
I don't understand why people have to use so much time and energy being negative.
.
[/quote]

Surely the artiste shouldn't have to explain his album for one to appreciate it? And as for people being negative, that's all down to personal taste and perception. Some like that stuff, others find it tedious. I'm afraid I sit in the latter camp.

As for Hadrien Feraud being on fire? I lost interest after 2 minutes. Did he ever warm up? I find his tone to be really annoying. I've heard him twice at bassday through Mark bass kit and it just sounds too muted and lacklustre.
For a bass solist on fire look up any TM stevens or Doug Wimbish clips on youchoob. That's Fire.

[xilddx]

[quote name='stonecoldbass' timestamp='1334080740' post='1610687'] Hey guys, Here is that link for Talkbass [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f19/janeks-new-album-870390/"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f19/janeks-new-album-870390/[/url] Check out the replies! [/quote]
Mate, great thread! Janek's been totally cool about it too. Respect.

We don't seem to have threads like that on BC. Why not?

Edited April 10, 2012 by silddx

[stonecoldbass]

Glad you guys like the discourse going on over there! I think there are threads like that here, but all too often they devolve into 'this guy is better','I don't like his tone' or 'he bores me' threads, when actually the root of the discussion is much deeper than that. I'm just really glad I managed to get a response from Janek and have the chance to respond. I guess that is both the blessing and the curse of these forums 'they're open to everyone an everyone can contribute and say what they like...' it's a double edged sword.

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1334069725' post='1610455']
I think some guys are missing the point about this album with discussing 'creativity' and 'compositions'.

Janek didn't compose pretty much anything at all on his latest release - all he had was a few sketches and rough ideas to derive the stuff from. What followed next, was an impromtu jam session.
So if you're blaming him for not having the right creativity, then you're equally blaming all the other guys that were featured on the album, which includes Mark Guiliana, Jojo Mayer, Tim Miller and Justin Vasquez.

Are you sure?
Kjb is right saying that nearly everyone has the right to [negatively] criticise others' work, not to mention that no one has anything better to offer. Saying that one 'lacks creativity or his stuff is 'dull, derivative pap' and not point out why, is not a constructive criticism.
I'm not arguing about taste, but saying that the stuff is dull, is just unbearable, IMHO.
[/quote]

Writing music and being creative are the driving forces behind releasing an album of your own music as a bandleader, Therefore looking at it from a creative and compositional perspective is completely valid. Its an album of improvised music yes, but Janek will have brought sketches and leadsheets to the table and his (stellar it has to be said) band will have brought those to life. regardless of how little, there IS composition and lots of creativity in there.

Im not having a go at the players, Janek is streets ahead of me as a musician and as a bass player. That doesnt mean i have to like what he's putting out there as a composer and bandleader. Im not being overly negative, it just doesnt gel with the way i approach writing and performing music. thats not to say i can do better in this medium, im not a match for any of the players on this album, but in my humble opinion, the compositions are sketchy as opposed to refined, and are fleshed out with improvisation. I prefer the mix to be the opposite, more like the way Hiromi writes for her band. Thats not to say its better, i just prefer it. As ive already said, I like Janeks playing style, he's one of the most lyrical bassists out there, I just wish his compositions were as in depth and as refined as everything about his playing

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1334069725' post='1610455']
I'm not arguing about taste, but saying that the stuff is dull, is just unbearable, IMHO.
[/quote]

Why is it unbearable? Because you idolise Janek and think he can do no wrong? I am sure he appreciates you crusading for him here, but please, allow for others to have their own opnions. If it's dull, it's dull. Long ago, I probably also thought that 'fusion' was a by-word for 'interesting' simply because it was music for musicians. Having looked deeper, I found that much like anything else, plenty of fusion is pap. Janek's latest album is pap.

Irrespective of whether or not the album consists of composed material or jamming and improvisation over rough ideas, a lacklustre product is a lacklustre product. To me, Janek's music just sounds dull. You may prefer a different adjective. Insipid, bland, tedious, for instance. You might say it lacks soul or passion. Listen to a [i]great[/i] fusion band like Weather Report. They could compose and they could improvise and come up with the goods every time. It sounded exciting, it felt natural. Is it beyond Janek to ever make music I will find interesting? Who knows. I am,not going to flagellate myself simply because I don't like his new album.

Quite frankly, the Crusaders in this thread are fighting a losing battle, simply because the concensus on this forums tends towards the sanctity of the individual's choice, rather than a mob-mentality deciding what we should all like. If I fancied some of that I'd join the EBMM forum! Their arguments have been more eloquently put by others more well qualified to defend their points of view countless times before, but as this thread quite proves, you simply cannot bludgeon someone into thinking the same way as you by going "i'm rite and ur rong' over and over again, in spite of what the Crusaders might think.

[Bilbo]

The problem with these disucssions is that perspective is always determined by the listening and playing experiences of the individual. If a kid who is a rock player hears Janek as the first advanced fusion player he has ever heard, he will have a different perspective than someone who has hundreds of bess led fusion cds dating back to Jaco and Stanley Clarke or even Mingus and Oscar Pettiford. Rating a musician, be that Janek, Mike Stern or Marcus Miller requires not only familiarity with their work but also the range of alternatives that are out there. Can you place Joe Henderson in the lineage of tenor saxophone players if you don't understand Coleman Hawkins, John Coltrane, Joe Lovano, Michael Breacker, Chris Potter etc? Can you comment on the JoJo Meyer if you don't know Elvin Jones, Billy Higgins, Steve Gadd, Dave Weckl, Bill Stewart and so on? You can have a view, of course, but it needs to be tempered by some acknowledgement of perspective.

I have my favourite classical pieces but would never argue the merits of Bach over Beethoven because I don't know the genre well enough. I would always look to the experts for a considered view and develop a perspective that way. The trouble with the net is everyone is an expert, whatever their knowledge or experience. Each contributor is given equal weight without any qualification.

[Faithless]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1334126376' post='1611116']
Why is it unbearable? Because you idolise Janek and think he can do no wrong? I am sure he appreciates you crusading for him here, but please, allow for others to have their own opnions. If it's dull, it's dull. Long ago, I probably also thought that 'fusion' was a by-word for 'interesting' simply because it was music for musicians. Having looked deeper, I found that much like anything else, plenty of fusion is pap. Janek's latest album is pap.

Irrespective of whether or not the album consists of composed material or jamming and improvisation over rough ideas, a lacklustre product is a lacklustre product. To me, Janek's music just sounds dull. You may prefer a different adjective. Insipid, bland, tedious, for instance. You might say it lacks soul or passion. Listen to a [i]great[/i] fusion band like Weather Report. They could compose and they could improvise and come up with the goods every time. It sounded exciting, it felt natural. Is it beyond Janek to ever make music I will find interesting? Who knows. I am,not going to flagellate myself simply because I don't like his new album.

Quite frankly, the Crusaders in this thread are fighting a losing battle, simply because the concensus on this forums tends towards the sanctity of the individual's choice, rather than a mob-mentality deciding what we should all like. If I fancied some of that I'd join the EBMM forum! Their arguments have been more eloquently put by others more well qualified to defend their points of view countless times before, but as this thread quite proves, you simply cannot bludgeon someone into thinking the same way as you by going "i'm rite and ur rong' over and over again, in spite of what the Crusaders might think.
[/quote]

Wow Can you quote where I idolised Janek or his latest album in here, please?
I didn't even like the album, not to mention idolising him or the CD.

Saying that it's dull with no further explanation is not an opinion nor a constructive criticism.
I wish I could see you do this (the very same way Janek did this album): assemble a four piece band, no rehearsals, use only brief ideas for tunes, don't add ANY solos from anyone, and jam the sh*t out.