peteb Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334141415' post='1611399'] The problem with these disucssions is that perspective is always determined by the listening and playing experiences of the individual. If a kid who is a rock player hears Janek as the first advanced fusion player he has ever heard, he will have a different perspective than someone who has hundreds of bess led fusion cds dating back to Jaco and Stanley Clarke or even Mingus and Oscar Pettiford. Rating a musician, be that Janek, Mike Stern or Marcus Miller requires not only familiarity with their work but also the range of alternatives that are out there. Can you place Joe Henderson in the lineage of tenor saxophone players if you don't understand Coleman Hawkins, John Coltrane, Joe Lovano, Michael Breacker, Chris Potter etc? Can you comment on the JoJo Meyer if you don't know Elvin Jones, Billy Higgins, Steve Gadd, Dave Weckl, Bill Stewart and so on? You can have a view, of course, but it needs to be tempered by some acknowledgement of perspective. I have my favourite classical pieces but would never argue the merits of Bach over Beethoven because I don't know the genre well enough. I would always look to the experts for a considered view and develop a perspective that way. The trouble with the net is everyone is an expert, whatever their knowledge or experience. Each contributor is given equal weight without any qualification. [/quote] Good post All I could say about JG comes from a YouTube clip for TC Electronics at a trade show, where there was an audience that was definitely listening but looked, well slightly bored! The next clip was Uriah Duffy playing at the same event, thru the same amp and to exactly the same audience, who were all smiling and clearly interested in what he was playing. Needsless to say, Uriah Duffy received MUCH more applause then Janek did...... Edited April 11, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334141415' post='1611399'] The problem with these disucssions is that perspective is always determined by the listening and playing experiences of the individual. [/quote] careful bilbo, this is my opinion too but have been heavily criticised on this forum for stating it. I first said this album is going to take a while to get used to as it wasn't what i was expecting having loved the space in between album. But i do have massive respect for Janek and his posts on the internet/ masterclasses i have visited have really inspired me. Hopefully once i have a clearer understanding of the music he has created i will enjoy it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334150192' post='1611605'] Good post All I could say about JG comes from a YouTube clip for TC Electronics at a trade show, where there was an audience that was definitely listening but looked, well slightly bored! The next clip was Uriah Duffy playing at the same event, thru the same amp and to exactly the same audience, who were all smiling and clearly interested in what he was playing. Needsless to say, Uriah Duffy received MUCH more applause then Janek did...... [/quote] But they the worst audiences of them all, a bunch of happy-clapping helmets who have no musical appreciation whatsoever, standing around a little stand watching someone demonstrate some non-musical technique with the aim of selling some gear. Whatever I think of Janek's music, I have to agree with him that these people are a drain, a f***ing burden, on the musicians and the people who really enjoy music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334141415' post='1611399'] I have my favourite classical pieces but would never argue the merits of Bach over Beethoven because I don't know the genre well enough. I would always look to the experts for a considered view and develop a perspective that way. The trouble with the net is everyone is an expert, whatever their knowledge or experience. Each contributor is given equal weight without any qualification. [/quote] Bach and Beethoven are sh*t. Mahler's yer man, he shits all over Bach and Beethoven. If you don't agree you don't know sh*t, man. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334152044' post='1611664'] But they the worst audiences of them all, a bunch of happy-clapping helmets who have no musical appreciation whatsoever, standing around a little stand watching someone demonstrate some non-musical technique with the aim of selling some gear. Whatever I think of Janek's music, I have to agree with him that these people are a drain, a f***ing burden, on the musicians and the people who really enjoy music. [/quote] Now there Nigel, that seems like an expression of contempt for your fellow musicians and members of the musical equipment trade, people who make up (whether you like it or not) part of your extended group of peers. You really do have to work out these self-hatred issues, they are only holding you back….. The reason that I mentioned the reaction at the trade show was to back up the point that Bilbo made in his post that his audience is only those who have an understanding of a pretty narrow part of the fusion / jazz cannon. If JG can’t get a favourable reaction out of the trade show crowd then he’s really f**ked if he ever has to face an audience made up of the general public! As it is, it seems that his target audience is predominantly made up of a section of people who frequent bass and certain jazz forums, including those who have been insulting each other on this thread! I find his music as dull as ditchwater (as I do the others he is being compared to here), but then my knowledge of this type of music is limited (but not non-existent). Even I can see that he is not close in terms of writing ability to the likes of Weather Report (for example) but that I can also accept that he is obviously a highly capable player who scores some highly prized gigs with guys who are extremely big names in the fusion world….. Edited April 11, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334164075' post='1611914'] [b]Now there Nigel, that seems like an expression of contempt for your fellow musicians and members of the musical equipment trade, people who make up (whether you like it or not) part of your extended group of peers. You really do have to work out these self-hatred issues, they are only holding you back….. [/b] The reason that I mentioned the reaction at the trade show was to back up the point that Bilbo made in his post that his audience is only those who have an understanding of a pretty narrow part of the fusion / jazz cannon. If JG can’t get a favourable reaction out of the trade show crowd then he’s really f**ked if he ever has to face an audience made up of the general public! As it is, it seems that his target audience is predominantly made up of a section of people who frequent bass and certain jazz forums, including those who have been insulting each other on this thread! I find his music as dull as ditchwater (as I do the others he is being compared to here), but then my knowledge of this type of music is limited (but not non-existent). Even I can see that he is not close in terms of writing ability to the likes of Weather Report (for example) but that I can also accept that he is obviously a highly capable player who scores some highly prized gigs with guys who are extremely big names in the fusion world….. [/quote] Not at all, I am expressing contempt for those who appreciate style and skill over substance, which seems to me to be an increasingly common trait over the last 25 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334164075' post='1611914'] I find his music as dull as ditchwater (as I do the others he is being compared to here), but then my knowledge of this type of music is limited (but not non-existent). Even I can see that he is not close in terms of writing ability to the likes of Weather Report (for example) but that I can also accept that he is obviously a highly capable player who scores some highly prized gigs with guys who are extremely big names in the fusion world….. [/quote] People get way too caught up in genres. I absolutely hate the term fusion, I'm not sure what it's even meant to mean (even if I am aware of what people would like me to think it means). I went to see Snarky Puppy on Sunday, and I absolutely loved every second of it but when the term 'fusion' gets applied to their music, my stomach turns a bit. Their music deserves a much better moniker, or better still, for people to understand that music is music - a touch of jazz here, a bit of funk there etc. It's all one giant palette. The argument that you are ill-equipped to judge music unless you have a very broad understanding of music (as much as elitism dictates that this should be the case) is quite frankly bollocks. The fact that artists willingly put their music out into the big wide world means that you waive the right to shelter yourself from the views of others. That's not to say that subjectivity concerning music shouldn't be exercised, but on the internet it's rarely obligatory and often totally ignored. Just learn to not expect it, but at the same time, let the music speak for itself as opposed to someone on a bass forum telling you why something you enjoy is rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334141415' post='1611399'] The problem with these disucssions is that perspective is always determined by the listening and playing experiences of the individual. If a kid who is a rock player hears Janek as the first advanced fusion player he has ever heard, he will have a different perspective than someone who has hundreds of bess led fusion cds dating back to Jaco and Stanley Clarke or even Mingus and Oscar Pettiford. Rating a musician, be that Janek, Mike Stern or Marcus Miller requires not only familiarity with their work but also the range of alternatives that are out there. Can you place Joe Henderson in the lineage of tenor saxophone players if you don't understand Coleman Hawkins, John Coltrane, Joe Lovano, Michael Breacker, Chris Potter etc? Can you comment on the JoJo Meyer if you don't know Elvin Jones, Billy Higgins, Steve Gadd, Dave Weckl, Bill Stewart and so on? You can have a view, of course, but it needs to be tempered by some acknowledgement of perspective. I have my favourite classical pieces but would never argue the merits of Bach over Beethoven because I don't know the genre well enough. I would always look to the experts for a considered view and develop a perspective that way. The trouble with the net is everyone is an expert, whatever their knowledge or experience. Each contributor is given equal weight without any qualification. [/quote] [quote name='risingson' timestamp='1334166969' post='1611967'] People get way too caught up in genres. I absolutely hate the term fusion, I'm not sure what it's even meant to mean (even if I am aware of what people would like me to think it means). I went to see Snarky Puppy on Sunday, and I absolutely loved every second of it but when the term 'fusion' gets applied to their music, my stomach turns a bit. Their music deserves a much better moniker, or better still, for people to understand that music is music - a touch of jazz here, a bit of funk there etc. It's all one giant palette. The argument that you are ill-equipped to judge music unless you have a very broad understanding of music (as much as elitism dictates that this should be the case) is quite frankly bollocks. The fact that artists willingly put their music out into the big wide world means that you waive the right to shelter yourself from the views of others. That's not to say that subjectivity concerning music shouldn't be exercised, but on the internet it's rarely obligatory and often totally ignored. Just learn to not expect it, but at the same time, let the music speak for itself as opposed to someone on a bass forum telling you why something you enjoy is rubbish. [/quote] I think that you may be misunderstanding the point that I was trying to make. Janek Gwizdala's music is not the most accessable (I don't think that he would claim that it is) and to appreciate it it helps to have an understanding of 'advanced fusion' music (see Bilbo's post above). I am quite happy to listen and enjoy all sorts of music but I don't like JG's music . However, this is partly because that sort of music is not really my thing, so it could be a really great piece of 'advanced fusion' and I still wouldn't like it...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334168210' post='1611991'] I think that you may be misunderstanding the point that I was trying to make. Janek Gwizdala's music is not the most accessable (I don't think that he would claim that it is) and to appreciate it it helps to have an understanding of 'advanced fusion' music (see Bilbo's post above). I am quite happy to listen and enjoy all sorts of music but I don't like JG's music . However, this is partly because that sort of music is not really my thing, so it could be a really great piece of 'advanced fusion' and I still wouldn't like it...! [/quote] I did get what you were getting at, I just used your post as a bit of a jumping off point, sorry I didn't make it a bit clearer. But there is a lot of music out there that isn't 'accessible' and I don't buy that you necessarily need a good understanding of any type of music to make a judgement on it necessarily. I dragged along a few people to a gig I went to on Sunday night that had absolutely no listening background in jazz but very much enjoyed a very leftfield jazz ('fusion') style band. Likewise my girlfriend's mum got taken along to a Shostakovich concerto recently having never been to (or listened to) anything much orchestral in her life and yet now she can't stop talking about him, talk about getting thrown in at the deep end. I think ultimately what is boils down to is just how open-minded you are, not how much you've listened to one particular type of music. Let people decide for themselves. Edited April 11, 2012 by risingson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='risingson' timestamp='1334168849' post='1612007'] I did get what you were getting at, I just used your post as a bit of a jumping off point, sorry I didn't make it a bit clearer. But there is a lot of music out there that isn't 'accessible' and I don't buy that you necessarily need a good understanding of any type of music to make a judgement on it necessarily. I dragged along a few people to a gig I went to on Sunday night that had absolutely no listening background in jazz but very much enjoyed a very leftfield jazz ('fusion') style band. Likewise my girlfriend's mum got taken along to a Shostakovich concerto recently having never been to (or listened to) anything much orchestral in her life and yet now she can't stop talking about him, talk about getting thrown in at the deep end. I think ultimately what is boils down to is just how open-minded you are, not how much you've listened to one particular type of music. Let people decide for themselves. [/quote] I agree to a large extent, but the less accessable the music is the more it helps to have an understanding of where that music comes from to appreciate it. I may not be a big fan of jazz fusion or whatever you might call it but I still have a couple of Weather Report albums, which I think bears out your point i.e. the better the music the more likely it is to appeal to those who you wouldn't normally expect to listen to it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='risingson' timestamp='1334168849' post='1612007'] I did get what you were getting at, I just used your post as a bit of a jumping off point, sorry I didn't make it a bit clearer. But there is a lot of music out there that isn't 'accessible' and I don't buy that you necessarily need a good understanding of any type of music to make a judgement on it necessarily. I dragged along a few people to a gig I went to on Sunday night that had absolutely no listening background in jazz but very much enjoyed a very leftfield jazz ('fusion') style band. Likewise my girlfriend's mum got taken along to a Shostakovich concerto recently having never been to (or listened to) anything much orchestral in her life and yet now she can't stop talking about him, talk about getting thrown in at the deep end. I think ultimately what is boils down to is just how open-minded you are, not how much you've listened to one particular type of music. Let people decide for themselves. [/quote] This is a difficult thing to explain. Because first you've got to find out what it was that they enjoyed. Was it the level of energy created by the performance? The feeling of release after tension? Or in the case of snarky puppy, their use of uncommon harmonies and subdivisions that make all us musicians poo our pants. Another thing. Pop music, rock music, and simple blues' use simple harmonic content. I can only imagine this is because the mass public prefer music where it is simple and easy to listen to, whereas a lot of jazz, especially fusion, has a niche market, most of which are musicians anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334169632' post='1612025'], which I think bears out your point i.e. the better the music the more likely it is to appeal to those who you wouldn't normally expect to listen to it..... [/quote] what makes it better though? I prefer bob reynolds music to Janek Gwizdala's, and i've found its because the melodies follow simple harmonies, something my ears are more accustomed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1334169826' post='1612031'] This is a difficult thing to explain. Because first you've got to find out what it was that they enjoyed. Was it the level of energy created by the performance? The feeling of release after tension? Or in the case of snarky puppy, their use of uncommon harmonies and subdivisions that make all us musicians poo our pants. Another thing. Pop music, rock music, and simple blues' use simple harmonic content. I can only imagine this is because the mass public prefer music where it is simple and easy to listen to, whereas a lot of jazz, especially fusion, has a niche market, most of which are musicians anyway. [/quote] In the real world punters tend not to over analyse why they like something, nor should they! Obviously simpler and more accessable music is more accessable to the general public. However, if a group like Weather Report can put out tunes like Birdland or Teen Town, then they will be able to reach a wider audience..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 FWIW I would imagine Janek G or any of his contemporaries wouldn't want to compose anything that sounds remotely similar to, or as accesible as, some Weather Report albums- some of their best stuff is 35 yrs old now. I still haven't listened to his latest album but bear in mind it sounds like an experiment, a moment in time captured, which has subsequently been released with an option of getting it for free. I think he's a good guy- he takes criticism incredibly well from what I've seen, and has a very infectious enthusiasm and desire to improve which, for me, transcends his compositional skills and music etc. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson- he makes me want to be a better musician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334171032' post='1612069'] In the real world punters tend not to over analyse why they like something, nor should they! Obviously simpler and more accessable music is more accessable to the general public. However, if a group like Weather Report can put out tunes like Birdland or Teen Town, then they will be able to reach a wider audience..... [/quote] no of course they shouldn't, but it's fun for us musicians I think you will be very hard pushed to find a large group of people who like teen town these days. This is now ridiculously off topic though. I listened to the album on my bike ride and really enjoyed the most part, i don't like the synth effect on the bass but theres lots i can learn from it and hopefully use the new knowledge to write songs to the best of my ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334158604' post='1611802'] Bach and Beethoven are sh*t. Mahler's yer man, he shits all over Bach and Beethoven. If you don't agree you don't know sh*t, man. Seriously. [/quote] You obviously havnt been at a live performance of Beethoven's 9th symphony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='funkypenguin' timestamp='1334172475' post='1612107'] You obviously havnt been at a live performance of Beethoven's 9th symphony [/quote] I was only joking mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='funkypenguin' timestamp='1334172475' post='1612107'] You obviously havnt been at a live performance of Beethoven's 9th symphony [/quote] That Europe totally spoiled Beethoven's 9th for me. Everytime they open a swimming pool or something it's "Da-da-da-da-da-di-dah". Tossers. Edited April 11, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334172864' post='1612116'] I was only joking mate [/quote] fair play I saw a peformance of it at the bridgewater hall in Manchester with the BBC symphony orchestra and the BBC voices. One of 2 or 3 performances of any type that have left me speechless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Quote from Janek: [quote]Anyway, I think I'm going to turn this thread into a blog post about communication if that's okay with you guys. It's rare in a forum like this that people can voice their opinion and no one get bent out of shape. I very much appreciate that, and hope that is something that might catch on across the pond and across the world one of these days[/quote] I think he means here, so stiff upper lip, etc, and sort your sh*t out - I'm not having the Talkbass loonies being praised for their measured response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1334221151' post='1612605'] Quote from Janek: I think he means here, so stiff upper lip, etc, and sort your sh*t out - I'm not having the Talkbass loonies being praised for their measured response [/quote] He also posted this, which I like [i]'If I lose a few "bass fans" along the way, I couldn't be happier. It's like people who are on your mailing list that are dead weight. They hang out and open one out of 50 emails you send out, and probably only arrived on the list to get something free in the first place. The more people like that I can trim away the better. People who call themselves "fans" just so they can hang out and make derogatory comments about what you do aren't really fans at the end of the day are they? People who focus too much on the instrument and not on the music generally come to shows and stand there motionless all night with their coat still on, and perhaps even a backpack with the latest copy of whatever industry magazine they just picked up, a set of strings or a pair of drumsticks. They don't buy drinks which pisses of the club or venue owner, and they certainly don't bring girls to the show which gets old after a while... and the worst part of all, they don't position themselves in a place of openness to enjoy the music because they're so wrapped up in how impossible it is to play as fast as Matt, Me, Hadrien or whoever. What they haven't realized is that if they really wanted to, they could play like that in 3 years. But there you come across yet another major issue with most people who are on this thought path or trajectory, they don't ever want to do the work. I really feel blessed to have such incredible fans that come out to shows and buy or download my music. They are loving, kind, and respectful, and I can do nothing but the same thing back to them. Long may this trend continue for my music. I will die a very happy person if this is the shape of things to come.'[/i] Edited April 12, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Yeah, I spotted that - but I didn't want to give people the mention in case it went to their heads You know who you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjb Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I just think that, if you give criticism then it should be in a positive manner, and not use it in a negative way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 [quote name='kjb' timestamp='1334227856' post='1612776'] I just think that, if you give criticism then it should be in a positive manner, and not use it in a negative way. [/quote] I hope you are not negatively criticising those of us critics who critique negatively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334229561' post='1612818'] I hope you are not negatively criticising those of us critics who critique negatively. [/quote] As I would take that negatively, and would ask that you criticise those of us critics who critique negatively in a positive way. Just to be clear, as we're all friends here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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