Seriously considering changing out my bass head...

[StevieD_FenderP2009]

I've done a couple of gigs lately where I've had to use my full bass rig but to me, my bass tone has just been too "polite" lately.

I'm currently using a Trace Elliot AH250 SMX head rack mounted with a couple of effects (Aphex Aural Exciter Type 103A for harmonic overdrive, Yamaha SPX 90 MK2 for chorus, Behringer T1952 compressor/gate) but the head it's self just seems to kind. I bought the Aphex because I heard it's what Steve Harris uses to "grit" up his bass tone but he also had a custom built Alectron head which is a carbon copy of the HiWatt 200 so that's going to provide some dirt anyway. Don't get me wrong, it's added some grit but just not quite enough. It also doesn't sound quite full enough. My other little qualm with the Trace is that the effects loop is quite noisy (but that might be one of my effects processors doing that).

To put it in to context, I'm looking for the sort of grit the likes of Rex Brown (Pantera), James LoMenzo (Megadeth era), David Ellefson (Megadeth), Ryan Waste (Municipal Waste), Duff McKagan (Guns N' Roses/Velvet Revolver) and Eddie Jackson (Queensryche). It's a properly aggressive sort of tone that still really cuts through a pair of guitars but backs them up when they're both doing a harmony or whatever.

So then, my conclusion. I'm thinking of swapping out the head and changing it. I can't afford Ampeg stuff so i'm not even going to consider looking in to them. My main requirements of the head is that it's rack mountable and that it has an effects loop (preferably switch-able but if not, then boo-hoo and i'll get on with it). After looking around and watching a few videos, there's a couple of heads i've taken a liking to. These being (and with the players I know use them next to it):

1: Ashdown 550 Spyder
2: Ashdown ABM500 RC evo III (James LoMenzo)
3: Hartke LH1000 (David Ellefson/Eddie Jackson)
4: Gallien Krueger 700-RB-II (Duff McKagan - yeah okay, he uses the 1000RB-II)

Or my very last option would be one I was thinking of ages ago. Get a Sansamp RPM and get the 700w power amp I was looking to get to power my cabinets. The reason I was looking at the Sansamp is because I'm a huge Geddy Lee fan and I know that's the one he uses to get that amazing tone he has. Plus, you can get them sounding nice clean or really gravelly!

Any opinions or what not?

Cheers
Stevie

[franzbassist]

I can't speak for 3 and 4, but I suspect the Spyder is more your tone than an ABM, even with the tube way up on the latter.

[Mudpup]

I have a Hartke LH500 - you wont get Eddie Jackson out of it!
Its a lovely warm clean amp but wont give you an edgey grind as it doesnt have an input gain. Even with a Spector like Eddie used to use.
I reckon you need a Sansamp to put a bit of grit into your sound. How about trying a BDDI? Its a cheaper option and you could always sell it on if it wasnt floating your boat.

[Nibody]

I had a Trace Elliot in the 90's as that was what Steve Harris was endorsing at the time and I do like a bit of Maiden, and I have to say I found it very Sterile which i suppose is another way of saying "polite", which is why I whent the Ampeg route this time around. Can't say I know much of any of those amps but the Sansamp would give you a good variety of tones. Could be shooting off the target of what you're after but what about something like this - [url="http://www.ehx.com/products/steel-leather"]http://www.ehx.com/products/steel-leather[/url]

[chrismuzz]

Frank Bello from Anthrax I believe uses an LH-1000 with a rackmounted Sansamp thingy just before it, and his tone is awesome!

You might be surprised to hear this, but the most aggressive amp I've heard is the Markbass F1. Super clean and super fast response. Brings out a nastier attack than anything else I've ever heard, and makes ANY cabinet kick serious ass. A sansamp before is is just asking for trouble... And I like trouble Coupled with a more guitarry overdrive/distortion after the Sansamp? Well... try it!

[Mog]

Sounds like the GK is what you are looking for. FWIW I use a LH 500 with an M80 to dial in some grit. Sounds epic with a Spector. Most of the names you mentioned used serious amounts of rack preamps to grit up their signal so bear that in mind also. I know that Rex has stopped using most of the outboards since Pantera finished. The difference is very noticeable. The classic grit rock tone (think Mike Inez, Rex, Merrill etc.) was achieved by putting a Sansamp RB 1 before the input of a tube amp (Ampeg or SWR usually).

Edited April 15, 2012 by Mog

[Prime_BASS]

You should really get out and try them all!

I would vote for markbass as hey have excellent response to the guitar(even when clipping) and does bring out the attack (which sould be inherent in your playing style for this music) plus the p[retty much flat response is a good way to start your EQ, especially if you are using effect before it.
My only issue with them is the centre frequencies. The low is about 10hz too low for my liking and both the mids are too close to the middle, although I leave it flat so no worries haha.

Although I've only heard a little bit of the artists you mentioned I imagine they have a crap tonne of EQ behind them in the studio, so it would be best to guage what you want fromm live videos. Bassists like Takeshi Ueda and Tim Commerford have usually great live sound and is pretty similar to the recording (cause they both have a crap tone of EQ and effects they've done themselves)

I'm no expert at generating sounds, but I would vote for a sansamp (not the character pedals very overated and expensive drive boxes) personally I'd look for a para driver as the BDDI has lots of mid suck, which may be good for you but if you want to put it back it's a little tougher on the BDDI.

after recently renting a wacking great Ampeg SVT II I'm pretty convinced now by the whole 'valve power' thing, the sound a/b to my LMtube which only has a tube pre, the clean tone is similar but the break etc compared tube pre and pedals is too differebt and if I wabted that full on rawk sound, I'd bite the bullet and get a valve power jobby.

[Merton]

[quote name='Mudpup' timestamp='1334466486' post='1616472']
I have a Hartke LH500 - you wont get Eddie Jackson out of it!
Its a lovely warm clean amp but wont give you an edgey grind as it doesnt have an input gain. Even with a Spector like Eddie used to use.
I reckon you need a Sansamp to put a bit of grit into your sound. How about trying a BDDI? Its a cheaper option and you could always sell it on if it wasnt floating your boat.
[/quote]
I got Eddie Jackson tones when I had the LH500. Depends how you play it

[Lozz196]

Well going by your descriptions of sounds you like, Steve, and the type of music, I think we have a fair bit in common sound-wise. As a long time Marshall/Ampeg lover, I`ve recently transferred my affections to Gallien Krueger and coupled with a Precision, I think I`ve finally found "me".

What I`ve found with Marshall/Ampeg is that I love the warmth of the tones, but once you add in any top end it seems to "ruin" the warmth, and just become too clicky/clanky. Whereas the GK has a different kind of depth to it that the top end just seems to sit so well with. You have the precision of the top end, but lose none of the thud downstairs.

As such, the GK in my opinion has to be given a go.

[dudewheresmybass]

I use an lh500 as my number 2 rig, and I can get some lovely grit with it using my USA p or
90's kramer
Definitely worth a try

[Truckstop]

Valves

[Truckstop]

And more helpfully, the GK gets a vote from me. I used a GK 400RB for 5 years in death metal bands and it really stood up to measure.

You can dial in plenty of grit and it just works with the rest of the EQ to make sure you don't lose any of that beef you no doubt want from your tone. Ultra reliable, FX loop, DI out and rackmountable. Looks devil too! And cheap!!! Even in a metal band I never thought it worth getting a fuzz/distortion outboard because the amp sounded so aggressive on it's own.

And another I really like about GK amps, is that the knobs are quite stiff and ultra precise. They don't feel loose or cheap like other amps knobs.

Quite

Alternatively, try a behringer bdi21. Everyone raves about them and so do I! The drive knob will be your friend. It's only £30+ so if you don't like it you can sell it on and only lose a Tenner. Or keep it for future studio use!

Truckstop

Edited April 15, 2012 by Truckstop

[thumbo]

I'm a GK convert and have been very happy with my 800RB over the past few years. Duff used an 800RB back in the day, he bought one when Guns N Roses got their first advance.

It's a great amp, but it's not gritty. It's got a punchy character to it and it sounds quite aggressive if the boost is cranked. I use a Rusty Box for adding a bit of dirt and livening up the tone. I'm not sure how the newer GK heads really compare though. If you can find a second hand 800RB they go for around £250-£300, and my opinion on them is that they work great as a solid, fat tone but they need a little something extra to help your sound stand out.

[thumbo]

[quote name='StevieD_FenderP2009' timestamp='1334446075' post='1616397']
It's a properly aggressive sort of tone that still really cuts through a pair of guitars but backs them up when they're both doing a harmony or whatever.
[/quote]

If you're after aggressive tone that always cuts through check out the Rusty Box. This solution might avoid having to sell your current setup.

[BassPimp66]

Have your tried the VT Bass pedal? This pedal has tons of grit on demand.
I reckon a VT bass coupled with a big rig will give you that gritty tone.

[nottswarwick]

Sansamp or ashdown lomenzo pedals into current rig would by my first try.

[Ruiner]

[quote name='thumbo' timestamp='1334484575' post='1616640']
If you're after aggressive tone that always cuts through check out the Rusty Box. This solution might avoid having to sell your current setup.
[/quote]

+1

Couldn't live without my Rusty Box.

[thumbo]

[quote name='Ruiner' timestamp='1334485721' post='1616668']
+1

Couldn't live without my Rusty Box.
[/quote]

Same here. I put it in my setup about 3 years ago and it's the only part of my rig that hasn't changed whilst most of my other gear has.

[hamfist]

To the OP ... I'm really surprised that you are considering completely changing your amp merely to add grit. If you like your amp's clean tone, and the EQ centres are to your taste then pedals are absolutely the way to go for adding any number of different types of grit/dirt.

Of the amps you mentioned being interested in, I have owned all except the Harkte. Of the others, the Ashdown ABM is absolutely superior in a rock music context, IMO. It does have it's valve pre, and will give one option for type of grit but, IMO, pedals will be more flexible, tweakable and easily changeable if they are not what you are looking for.
I'd spend a day on youtube listening to pedal demos. Some to start with ...

... EBS Multidrive
Xotic BB bass pre-amp
Ashdown James Lomenzo hyperdrive thingy

[gsgbass]

The Hartke LH amps work well. I'm using an LH500. If I needed a more powerful amp, the LH1,000 would be my choice.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Just to be a bit nerdy, Duff uses and has always used the 800RB since he got his first advance. He's advertised in England as using a 1001RB-II because the 800RB can't be sold over here (iirc something to do with the build of it, it might contain lead or something else that the EU doesn't allow but I really don't know).

If you like his tone, there's nothing like a GK amp. The 700RB-II will do what you want just as well as the 1001RB-II. They're exactly the same apart from the difference in wattage and with the 700RB-II being 480w at 4Ohms, it's unlikely you'll need more (especially with a GK amp which are loud) unless you're playing venues big enough to justify a 2001RB-II.

All the mkII amps are based on the sound of the 800RB anyway so if you get any of them, you'll be able to get a similar sound out of it. Even the MB series which sound quite different still have the inherant GK tone.

You seem to have picked 3 brands that have different sounds, you should see if you can try them out see which type of sound you prefer.

Edited April 15, 2012 by ThomBassmonkey

[StevieD_FenderP2009]

Now the overwhelming choices here seem to be the Gallien Krueger 700/800RB-II and the sansamp to drive it. I'm not really thinking of changing my whole set up, i'm just considering changing the main core of it, the Trace Elliot (which is only a pre amp really. It's just lucky it has a power stage to it to power my cabs).

If any one has a GK 700/800RB or Ashdown ABM500RC and they're willing to lend it to me in return for something, I'd appreciate it. Just so I could try one out and see if it's closer to what I want.
I'd probably end up getting a Sansamp as well to go in my set up for some really gravelly tones. Especially as from what I recall, the Sansamp can be bypassed without any tone loss with a footswitch.

Going over to what I said about Eddie Jackson of Queensryche, I looked in to his rig and the way he gets his tone is by aggressively finger picking his Spector/Fernandes basses which have been equipped with EMGs. He uses the typical hartke set up of the LH1000 and HyDrive 4x10/8x10 cabs with no effects.

I would look in to getting a few pedals for it all but I'm trying (and losing the battle) to not go down the dark road of pedals. If I can get everything I want (apart from the Wah pedal) as a rack unit, I'll do it that way but that may change somewhere down the line haha. Especially the LoMenzo pedal, I do love the sound of that one.

If I could afford an Ampeg SVT-4 Pro, I'd buy one without giving it a second thought as I love ampeg stuff but alas, £1400 is a bit out of my league.

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1334482339' post='1616598']
Well going by your descriptions of sounds you like, Steve, and the type of music, I think we have a fair bit in common sound-wise. As a long time Marshall/Ampeg lover, I`ve recently transferred my affections to Gallien Krueger and coupled with a Precision, I think I`ve finally found "me".

What I`ve found with Marshall/Ampeg is that I love the warmth of the tones, but once you add in any top end it seems to "ruin" the warmth, and just become too clicky/clanky. Whereas the GK has a different kind of depth to it that the top end just seems to sit so well with. You have the precision of the top end, but lose none of the thud downstairs.

As such, the GK in my opinion has to be given a go.
[/quote]

From the looks of things, we are very similar in what we want tone-wise. I will say though, the speakers in my Marshall cabs (old school Celestion 12's for the 4x12 and Celestion 15's for the 2x15) don't seem to ever lose their top end but the 15's just pour out low end. Perfect mixture really. It's funny that you've gone from Ampeg to GK, normally you see people going the other way but that's enough of a recommendation for me anyway. Especially as all I use are Precision Basses at the moment (I do have plans to get a Spector Euro 4LX at some point)

Sorry if I seem like I've ignored any one's replies on here, I can assure you I have read all replies and taken them in to account and I do appreciate the replies/opinions. I'll bear them all in mind too.

[ThomBassmonkey]

It'd be pointless having a 700RB-II AND a Sansamp The GK amps have enough natural growl for anyone. If you wanted an 800RB (there is no 800RB-II ), you'll have to look 2nd hand, you don't often see them though as most people regard them as keepers.

If you're ever down the Derby/Notts way, you're welcome to pop to mine, I have a couple of GK stacks and you're welcome to have a fiddle with both if you fancy. If you're looking at the 700RB-II, I have the 2001RB-II which is basically the same (with some extra features and a load more power).

[StevieD_FenderP2009]

Thanks for that Thom, I really appreciate you helping out with that info. As you can tell, I don't know much about GK's stuff. 2001rb, isn't that the 2000 watt version? if so, that's ridiculously powerful haha. Bet you can't even use it on 1 at home.

If I am around derby, i'll be sure to give you a message. Thanks again dude!

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='StevieD_FenderP2009' timestamp='1334527516' post='1617353']
Thanks for that Thom, I really appreciate you helping out with that info. As you can tell, I don't know much about GK's stuff. 2001rb, isn't that the 2000 watt version? if so, that's ridiculously powerful haha. Bet you can't even use it on 1 at home.

If I am around derby, i'll be sure to give you a message. Thanks again dude!
[/quote]

No worries

The 2001RB-II is 2x540w into 2Ohm or 1080w into 4Ohm when bridged, obviously both have the 50w tweeter amp for bi-amping when used with the RBH and NEO cabs. It's crazy loud, I use it with 2x410RBH and I have to have it on about 2 with the pad on max. Even if I'm using my NEO212 cabs it's still never past about 3. Seriously loud gear.

I used to have a 700RB-II with two 210RBH (my first GK amp) and that was more than loud enough.

In case there's any doubt, here's a vid of my band playing an auditorium a couple of years back. I was using my 700RB-II into a single 210RBH. Recorded just using a normal video camera mic too from what I remember and you can still clearly hear the bass.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-b6mNiEqcw&feature=relmfu[/media]