KevB Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Last band I was in was a trio and we would typically get around £180-£200 for a gig. However I've been in a 4 and 5 piece band in the recent past that didn't get any more. Pubs usually have a set rate irrespective of band size. Whatever they might say publically I'm sure there are plenty of 5 piece bands doing the rounds in Nottingham for less than £200. Only those that go through an agency will get more and then they lose 15% up front to the booker anyway, often don't make a massive amount more per band member than doing it themselves for less up front. We bring it on ourselves though. More bands than venues and if some bunch of kids in it for the laugh say they will gig for £100 then it brings the rates down for everyone in the end. We're all scared of getting blacklisted by venues for asking too much so the venues have us over a barrel while there are bands prepared to play for peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Couple of places round here decided they would cap payment at £100 PLUS 10% of bar takings. Nobody plays there anymore unless the venue likes them enough to pay their own rate. One of those bands would charge £250 min and they don't pull in anything like you would have to do to get £150 of bar takings at 10%... But what they have effectively done is trash their monthly line-up of bands as no one will take the £100 deal.. only desperate and not very good bands, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben604 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'll just qualify out rates, we're a 4 piece and we did start at £200-250 at most of our regular gigs, but we usually bring a crowd (and do increasingly so, locally) and we were getting an extra £50 from the landlord anyway. Now they just pay £300 every time we play and we ask for £300 for new gigs as most are booked on word of mouth reputation from other pubs/bands we know. I think bringing a crowd (where possible) makes a difference, if it's busy and buzzing, landlords get caught up in the moment and pay more. We've just ordered 50 t-shirts to give away to our regular fans, that should ensure they come to our gigs even [i]more[/i] regularly! More fans, more money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 We usually have an introductory rate for a new venue, once we've proven ourselves that goes up. So if we fill a place (we usually do) and the bar does well we negotiate there and then when they try and book us. But we won't go out for less than £50 a man/woman in any case. If you take a professional attitude you need to think about what you're actually earning. If you arrive at 7, load-in, setup, soundcheck and play for 2-3 hours, pack down and load out you're not getting out of there before midnight, sometimes 1. So you're looking at 5-6 hours work. Not allowing for travel expenses (which most jobs do), it £50 a man/woman that's £10 - 8 an hour, the national minimum wage is £6.08, if you're going out for less than that you're a mug. A 5 piece band going out for £150 is earning £6 - £5 an hour each. Some might be prepared to do that, not me. Even at £10/hour on the night you don't get paid for time/money spent practicing, preparing 2+ hours worth of entertainment. Or money spent on equipment (how many min wage jobs do you have to bring your own tools?) even a Squier P and a Secondhand amp will run to a few hundred, not to mention the PA you have to bring, lights etc. Is it any wonder musicians are poor in this country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) About £150 on average for us. Just confirmed a date where we get £100 plus 10% of what they make on the door. Were a very new band though! I don't mind as it's a hobby, but a bit extra would be nice Edited April 16, 2012 by chrismuzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1334574644' post='1617750'] Even at £10/hour on the night you don't get paid for time/money spent practicing, preparing 2+ hours worth of entertainment. Or money spent on equipment (how many min wage jobs do you have to bring your own tools?) even a Squier P and a Secondhand amp will run to a few hundred, not to mention the PA you have to bring, lights etc. Is it any wonder musicians are poor in this country? [/quote] A pub will pay you for the entertainment you provide. They judge the quality for that from the number of punters and the bar takings. If you're lucky the manager might know something about music too... It's up to you how much you spend on gear - and it's not their job to pay you back for that! Being "professional" is one thing, being greedy is another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Do you seriously think £10/hour is greedy? Thats [u]BEFORE[/u] buying equipment and travel and rehearsal expenses - which like any self employed person are your own lookout, but are taken into consideration when setting your rates. How many self-employed, skilled trades can you get for less than £10/hour? The guy who fixed my washing machine the other week changed my £150 to fit a £5 part that took him less than half an hour. Thats what you pay for the skill and expertise required to get the job done. Pub owners often pay bands less than their bar staff pro rata! Sure if you look at it on a product basis, the pub is paying a flat fee for entertainment, they don't care about how many people are in the band (the fewer the better usually as they take up less room). But what I'm saying is the value that a lot of places put on the service provided is not very high, if the band does a good job they will get punters in, and keep them in. Some of the venues discussed on here have a good system where the band takes a percentage of bar takings, it seems fair as long as the gig is well promoted. All of the places we play pay us well, and they have us back as generally they have to put in a large order to the brewery the day after we have played. It amazes me though that some places have a fixed rate policy that is under £200 when they are generally booking 4, 5 and 6 piece bands. Its not greed, its business sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 As I say playing in a pub should be your loss leader and you should only be playing once every couple of months, not treating it as your main source of income. If you're playing pubs only and you're only getting £100-£200 and you want more then you have to improve your show and go for parties and weddings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1334577270' post='1617819'] Do you seriously think £10/hour is greedy? But what I'm saying is the value that a lot of places put on the service provided is not very high, if the band does a good job they will get punters in, and keep them in. Its not greed, its business sense. [/quote] Hmmmm. I think the problem here is that most of us treat playing pub gigs as our hobby - and do not look at it in a very businesslike way. I am not arguing with you on the value of what we provide, and I agree that most pubs get more than their fair share of income when a good band with a good following of heavy drinkers plays... However, I'm not sure you'll convince many pubs about your "hourly rate per head" pricing structure. Why would they hire a six piece if they could get a three piece for half the price? I think there has to be a bit of give and take here. Many pubs are closing and others are struggling. They do not have loads of funds to throw into live music. We should be glad that there are still those that are prepared to take a risk and book lesser-known bands, with no guarantee that they will recoup the payment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='gub' timestamp='1334517257' post='1617144'] Just reading another thread where it seemed £200 was the going rate for a duo and that's why we are charging for 5 pelf us playing , this is for mostly pubs but we have also done some private party's for about the same , I am always saying to the rest of the guys we should ask more but most of them think this is about right ! What are your guys thoughts ? [/quote] Hi. I'm the original poster of the other thread which you mention (above). There are two things that I originally thought ...... which I think have been confirmed by all of your answers to this thread and my own. 1. There is a difference in going rate depending on the type of the event. You would expect to get more for a party than a pub gig (generally speaking) .... with weddings and corporates being on a higher scale still. I wouldn't be surprised if the scales are: Pubs £150 to £300 Parties £250 to £500 (or maybe slightly more) .... with weddings more expensive than that generally and corporate gigs maybe even slightly higher than that. Of course, there are a lot of factors to take into account which will vary the above ...... perhaps the most important being skill and reputation. But, in my neck of the woods, I don't guess the above would be too wide of the mark. 2. Someone said that there is no difference in pay between a duo, a trio, a four-piece, five-piece etc. I understand the logic behind that comment ..... as the client is just paying for a show after all. But I guess there IS a difference and that clients WILL expect to pay slightly less for a duo (or indeed a soloist) and they would expect to pay more for a "big band" with lots of members. But I don't guess they will care if it is a 3,4 or 5 piece. In pure pounds per hour terms, I guess there are benefits to being a soloist, or in a duo or trio. Edited April 16, 2012 by The Dark Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) When it comes to parties soloists and duos are competing with discos as I imagine most of what they are playing has backing or simple arrangemnents. Couple that with the amount of set up time and gear. No drums for a start. Bands are different. Parties should be £450-£650 then dinner and dances £650-800 and weddings £800+ for your average pub type band stepping up from the pub circuit. Once you have an established client base then you can start to get a better feel for what you can charge them. The other issue is how much are you prepared to gig. One band I know do a pub gig every month.then a party. So they are busy enough then any extra they bump the price right up because they don't want to be gigging 3 or 4 times a month unless the money is there. You can tell hobby bands a mile off and they deserve to be paid £200 a gig. Edited April 16, 2012 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1334587254' post='1618048']You can tell hobby bands a mile off and they deserve to be paid £200 a gig. [/quote] That's an extremely patronising and sweeping generalisation. It is also inaccurate if you are suggesting that bands that play "for fun" are somehow less worth their wages than a so-called professional outfit. The differentiation is not in quality but in outlook. So "pro" bands I have seen were awful, whereas some "hobby bands" as you call them are brilliant. The only difference is their motivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1334597928' post='1618311'] That's an extremely patronising and sweeping generalisation. It is also inaccurate if you are suggesting that bands that play "for fun" are somehow less worth their wages than a so-called professional outfit. The differentiation is not in quality but in outlook. So "pro" bands I have seen were awful, whereas some "hobby bands" as you call them are brilliant. The only difference is their motivation. [/quote] Couldn't agree more. I play in a hobby band with 4 other guys and they are fantastic musicians who have honed their talent for over 30 years each (we are all in our late 40's), that's 150 years of accumulated knowledge and experience (including 2 of the band being employed as music teachers in state maintained schools). I can honestly say that we could mop the floor with a great number of bands who claim to be/or are, 'Professional'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1334587254' post='1618048'] You can tell hobby bands a mile off and they deserve to be paid £200 a gig. [/quote] Cobblers. Some of the hobby bands round our way would knock your socks off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Lol. I play in a hobby band. I wasn't talking about the musicianship. That's not what is being discussed, it's the proffesionalism I'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gub Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Cheers guys what we are charging is about right then for pubs ,just think we need to charge more for the private funtions ,i think the idea of 10 ph pp from when you leave the house until you get in sounds about right . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1334599144' post='1618333'] Lol. I play in a hobby band. I wasn't talking about the musicianship. That's not what is being discussed, it's the proffesionalism I'm talking about. [/quote] Can you give us an example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Indeed it's not about how good the band are...... for function and corporate, it's the way they conduct the service they provide. Big difference Edited April 16, 2012 by crez5150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I think we might be talking at cross-purposes here! For a start, I'm not sure what some people mean by "professional". Are we talking about arriving on time? Being dressed suitably for the function/venue in question? Playing a well-rehearsed set of well-chosen material? Interacting politely and respectfully with the organisers/managers/owners etc...? If one has a "day-job" and plays in a band in the evenings and weekends (therefore a "hobbyist") and does all of the above, does that make you "professional"? Discuss.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='gub' timestamp='1334599427' post='1618341'] Cheers guys what we are charging is about right then for pubs ,just think we need to charge more for the private funtions ,i think the idea of 10 ph pp from when you leave the house until you get in sounds about right . [/quote] Maybe.... but I would also talk to other bands in your area about what they are charging. You don't want to price yourselves out of the market based on someone else's principles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1334599144' post='1618333'] I wasn't talking about the musicianship. That's not what is being discussed, it's the proffesionalism I'm talking about. [/quote] In most cases, I think the two are linked - but it obviously depends on genre and other variables.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Obviously if you're not in it for the money and you are turning down party gigs in favour of pub gigs then that's up to you but you can't then complain that you're not getting paid much if 1) you don't want to be and 2) you're turning down better paid gigs. So my comment stands. You don't deserve to be. The thread is about money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Also, I think we need to differentiate between being a professional and behaving like a professional. Not the same thing! I have a day job, and I play in a band that is paid reasonably for providing a service in the evenings. To my mind this is a professional engagement however you look at it. For two members of this band these gigs is their main source of income at the moment. So does that mean they are professional and I am not? I agree with TimR on this one too. There are a lot of 'hobby' bands who play occasional pub gigs who get £150 and don't deserve a penny more. There are also a lot of bands who don't go out for less than £500 and do many more gigs a month. If I were paying £500 for a band I would expect them to behave in a professional manner and provide me with a value for money entertainment service. If I were paying £150 I would expect them to drink all night, have crappy gear that doesn't work properly, and get most of the songs a bit wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 That's not quite what I'm saying. There are other things you have to provide when stepping up from the pub circuit. As examples PAT testing, Public Liability insurance, email correspondence spelled correctly I would also expect a written contract and a non returnable deposit. Once you have committed to a gig you're fairly bound to do it. Compared to pubs which you or they often cancel on the day, or sometimes when you arrive. This is why some people don't do private gigs. Not because they're not musically good or equipment is not up to scratch. Purely because they don't need the extra hasstle. Professionalism isn't just earning a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1334658241' post='1619146'] If I were paying £150 I would expect them to drink all night, have crappy gear that doesn't work properly, and get most of the songs a bit wrong. [/quote] A reasonable expectation - quite a few of the bands around here would surprise you, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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