I can do better than that!

[shizznit]

This is a topic no doubt that has been discussed on BC many times before, but allow me to vent!

I went out for a meal with my girlfriend on Saturday night and she wanted to catch some live music after we had eaten. I took her to a well known live music venue in Cardiff and as we walked in a 5-piece covers band were setting up. Sorted! Soon afterwards they started to play their first set. Apart from being horrifically loud for the size of the venue they were simply just awful. The singers voice was very weak, flat and forgot his lyrics, the drummer knew only two beat patterns for every song they played, the bass player didn’t know that he was playing the wrong notes for at least 2 bars before realising on quite a few songs and the guitar player…well…he was actually pretty good to be fair! Sometimes a band can have a bad night (we all do), but you can tell that they are simply crap anyway.

I am not focussing so much on their ability or talent, but more on how much my girlfriend (along with many others) enjoyed their performance despite being so bad. I really struggled to enjoy the evening hearing so many monumental mistakes being made or lack of effort to at least play the song vaguely similar to the original. I have got to a stage whereby I am very pensive about going out to see a live band in town…covers bands to be precise. Most of my live work at the moment is with covers bands and we do put a lot of effort in to study the songs and get them sounding tight and as precise to the original song as possible. And yet, we are struggling to get into well paid venues in the area such as this one and a bunch of plebs can walk in to play a bunch of songs very poorly and get away with it. I couldn’t help but feel a bit gutted and a tad bit angry.

As a musician I can be hyper critical (and often I am) about other performing musicians. But, the bigger thing for me is that punters will enjoy a poor band as equally as a good one. Most folks at the venue are not musicians and don’t pick up on the mistakes or bad musicianship. I’m fine with that…as long as they have a great night who cares really, but I go out to perform to my best ability so that the punters can enjoy their evening. Is my hard work to achieve that noticeable?

As I get older and more experienced with my musical endeavours I find it harder to enjoy myself at a gig for these reasons. This kills me because above all else I am a music fan and I want to enjoy live music, but I do have a competitive nature. I think you gain that on the covers circuit after a while because you are all fighting to get the best gig in town. But, it does really vex me when I watch a band in venues with high exposure that we can’t get into that are not good enough for the fee they are paid and the punters big them up. I need to relax more and let it go over my head, but I can't help feel that the punters deserve better even though they might not know it.

Edited April 16, 2012 by shizznit

[joeystrange]

The sad thing is that even godawful covers bands get gigs and get paid. I'd be willing to bet they get paid more and more regularly than most of our original bands too.
I've had this conversation many times and me and my drummer have even thought about starting a purposely crap covers band just to see how east it is to get paid gigs doing it.
I know there are rubbish originals bands out there too but the difference is they probably don't make any money.

What a completely arse-backwards industry we all choose to work in!

[discreet]

T'was ever thus. Most people really don't know what they're listening to or what they're looking at and have no discernment whatsoever. You only have to look at the quality of modern television programming (for example) to realise what a cultural wasteland we live in. All this turns my urine to vapour too, but all you can do is continue to retain your own high standards and resist the temptation to think, 'meh... that'll do', like so many people seem to do. [i]You [/i]know if you're playing well or not, and [i]that's [/i]what counts.

[charic]

What it'll come down to though is that crap bands may well get regular gigs down the dog and duck but will never (ok, rarely then) progress onto anything bigger or better.

Keep hard at it and you'll stand out from the crowd

[chris_b]

You can always find someone who “can do better”. That’s not the point.

Bands should be aiming to please audiences not other musicians, and audiences like what they like.

[TheGreek]

Poor bands get away with it because after consuming a few most of the punters don't know what they're listening to anyway..

[thunderbird13]

When I think back to when I started off on bass one of the big problems I had was that I could hear the bass properly on songs that I wanted to learn. Once I had trained myself to hear bass then the next thing was to train myself to hear the bass drum and them on a more complicated level how the drums and the bass interact and them how the other instruments inter act with that. The point is that listening to music in that critical sense is something which doesn’t come naturally to most people so if they don’t train themselves they listen to the singer , feel the beat and everything else is pretty much filler. And if they’re enjoying themselves then fair play

So no musical talent isn’t needed to entertain the punters But I think that to get into a band in the first place , and to keep your place you need to impress musos in the auditions

[cheddatom]

The main reason I hate waiting around before playing at gigs is that the majority of bands you have to sit through are sh*t, and the majority of soundmen set everything too loud.

[chris_b]

[quote name='joeystrange' timestamp='1334565567' post='1617532']
....What a completely arse-backwards industry we all choose to work in!....
[/quote]

No.

We've been over this one too many times.

If an audience doesn't like an originals band then it's not the audiences fault. It's the bands fault for writing boring original (probably very unoriginal) songs. An audience will like what it likes and that's not wrong on any level.

You can write songs an audience likes and be successful or you can play numbers written by other more successful people but don’t whinge about bands that are working.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1334566287' post='1617544']
The point is that listening to music in that critical sense is something which doesn’t come naturally to most people so if they don’t train themselves they listen to the singer , feel the beat and everything else is pretty much filler.
[/quote]

It took me a long time to grasp this!! I was really surprised when my girlfriend explained that she couldn't seperate out the bass and guitar etc. I think she can now because I talk about mixes a lot, but yeh, I never realised that people don't all listen to music in the same way.

[skankdelvar]

It's always tempting to vent over this sort of thing. After all, one has put so much effort into mastering one's instrument and one's material and being musicianly and whatnot.

But really, it's not remotely about this other band's technical failings. Somehow or another, they must be doing [i]something[/i] right because they've got the gig and the OP hasn't. Perhaps someone in their band is a consummate gig-blagger. Perhaps their marketing is better. Maybe a booker looks at their setlist and thinks "That's the right mix". Maybe they played for free. Maybe the drummer's related to the booker.

Whatever the reason, they've exploited it and there's little benefit in us going down the "Bookers are stupid and punters are stupid" route because you have to work with what you're given.

Selling a band in to a booker is like selling anything else. Find out what people want and give it to them. Problem is, many of us start out by focussing on what [i]we[/i] want to play and how to play it - genre, material, arrangements etc. That's the wrong way round if your aim is to secure regular gigs at local venues. The crafty ones survey the market and focus as much on how they present their offering as how they deliver it.

As for punters not noticing, well who cares if they notice or not? Our job is not to present a faultless musical display but to entertain them in the broadest possible sense. Let's face it, if people will happily dance to a record, they're clearly not too bothered about the 'live' component. They just want a beat and a tune, preferably one they know.

Audience engagement is about much more than playing the right notes, yet how often is this critical issue discussed on BC? Hardly ever. The reason why we're collectively less successful than we could be is because we spend too much time on here agonising about tone and cables and guitarists' irritating little habits.

Frankly, looking an audience member in the eye and smiling at them is a lot more productive than executing that fancy lick we spent all afternoon learning. But we never learn.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar

[cheddatom]

I think it depends what you're trying to do. If you want to play covers in pubs or crowd pleasing pop/rock, then yeh, who cares how good you are as long as the audience likes it.

Personally i'd rather be in a good band

[Mog]

Its the worst part of being a musician innit? Having to watch some pants band and knowing that they're getting paid for it when you maybe aint earning regularly.
Goes to prove a point though. The punters are rarely as anal about the tiny details as we are. Time to sell those £1000+ rigs everybody.

[charic]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334569926' post='1617607']

Frankly, looking an audience member in the eye and smiling at them is a lot more productive than executing that fancy lick we spent all afternoon learning. But we never learn.
[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

That's until you take into account recording

Also the genre may put a little sway into this.

[Panamonte]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334569926' post='1617607']
Frankly, looking an audience member in the eye and smiling at them is a lot more productive than executing that fancy lick we spent all afternoon learning. But we never learn.[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

Absolutely - back in the day, it took me a while to realise that ultimately when you're up there on stage your job is to entertain - to put some energy into what you're doing, throw some shapes, jump around, look like you're having a good time (I generally am), engage with the audience - essentially give the punters something to look at as well as something to dance to.

[discreet]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334569926' post='1617607']
....Frankly, looking an audience member in the eye and smiling at them is a lot more productive than executing that fancy lick we spent all afternoon learning....
[/quote]

And what's wrong with doing both..?

[Lozz196]

It`s sad, but I can see where the OP is coming from. I`ve seen many covers bands where I`ve thought they were mediocre at least, yet the audience have loved them (aside from the other musicians present, that is).

Maybe being musicians has spoiled our enjoyment of (others playing) live music? I know it has mine (when it`s played badly, that is), but then I tend to listen to each individual instrument, whereas maybe the non-musicians just listen to a song they like, being played live.

[Mog]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1334570609' post='1617622']
And what's wrong with doing both..?
[/quote]
Love it! Buy that man a pint!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Panamonte' timestamp='1334570594' post='1617620']
Absolutely - back in the day, it took me a while to realise that ultimately when you're up there on stage your job is to entertain - to put some energy into what you're doing, throw some shapes, jump around, look like you're having a good time (I generally am), engage with the audience - essentially give the punters something to look at as well as something to dance to.
[/quote]

I saw an instrumental band called "animals as leaders" the other day. They didn't really move about much at all. Practically no communication with the audience either. After a 30mins support slot half of the venue were shouting for more.

[JTUK]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1334564921' post='1617519']
This is a topic no doubt that has been discussed on BC many times before, but allow me to vent!

I went out for a meal with my girlfriend on Saturday night and she wanted to catch some live music after we had eaten. I took her to a well known live music venue in Cardiff and as we walked in a 5-piece covers band were setting up. Sorted! Soon afterwards they started to play their first set. Apart from being horrifically loud for the size of the venue they were simply just awful. The singers voice was very weak, flat and forgot his lyrics, the drummer knew only two beat patterns for every song they played, the bass player didn’t know that he was playing the wrong notes for at least 2 bars before realising on quite a few songs and the guitar player…well…he was actually pretty good to be fair! Sometimes a band can have a bad night (we all do), but you can tell that they are simply crap anyway.

I am not focussing so much on their ability or talent, but more on how much my girlfriend (along with many others) enjoyed their performance despite being so bad. I really struggled to enjoy the evening hearing so many monumental mistakes being made or lack of effort to at least play the song vaguely similar to the original. I have got to a stage whereby I am very pensive about going out to see a live band in town…covers bands to be precise. Most of my live work at the moment is with covers bands and we do put a lot of effort in to study the songs and get them sounding tight and as precise to the original song as possible. And yet, we are struggling to get into well paid venues in the area such as this one and a bunch of plebs can walk in to play a bunch of songs very poorly and get away with it. I couldn’t help but feel a bit gutted and a tad bit angry.

As a musician I can be hyper critical (and often I am) about other performing musicians. But, the bigger thing for me is that punters will enjoy a poor band as equally as a good one. Most folks at the venue are not musicians and don’t pick up on the mistakes or bad musicianship. I’m fine with that…as long as they have a great night who cares really, but I go out to perform to my best ability so that the punters can enjoy their evening. Is my hard work to achieve that noticeable?

As I get older and more experienced with my musical endeavours I find it harder to enjoy myself at a gig for these reasons. This kills me because above all else I am a music fan and I want to enjoy live music, but I do have a competitive nature. I think you gain that on the covers circuit after a while because you are all fighting to get the best gig in town. But, it does really vex me when I watch a band in venues with high exposure that we can’t get into that are not good enough for the fee they are paid and the punters big them up. I need to relax more and let it go over my head, but I can't help feel that the punters deserve better even though they might not know it.
[/quote]

Yep...this is quite common... I honestly don't know how some bands get gigs.
I think venues have to take some responsibility as well as they book these bands...and after establishing a venue as worth it just to pop in, they then go and book atrocious bands who might scare people away. anyway, old news round here.
I was recently talking to a friend when one of these said bands gtrs came over and got chatting ..and he was saying they are finding it hard after a good few years on the circuit.
He thought bashing out endless Blues based songs as a 4 piece band with endless solos with his repeated licks and tricks was enough and that the music scene was dead..well, he was adding more nails into that coffin.
They REALLY should have broken up ages ago.

I think there are too many venues and bands that will work too cheap... ( fine line and all that )
if the pub/venue has to fill up their dates and takes chances...then the standard invariably drops a few times.
It doesn't take long to kill a venue.

[Bilbo]

A lot of this is, as skank says, about us deciding what it is we want to do. I know that I could, if I chose to, start/join a covers band that focussed its energies on a highly commercial product that appealed to a section of he market that would guarantee frequent gigs. Problem is, and, in mycase, always has been that I don't want to. I did a gig last night that was not jazz and found myself driving home thinking 'I want to knock everything on the head except Jazz originals'. I know that is suicide in terms of regular gigging and have noticed that, as gigs are tailing off for many of us, I am finding that I am ss likely to be 'match fit' for the gigs I do do. The question is always 'what are we doing this for'. If it is fame and fortune, you take one route. If it is to make money, you take another and, if it is for artistic/aesthetic reasons, you take a third.

Audiences want what they want (and some certainly DON'T want 'Mustang Sally'), and many of them don't actually know or even care what is happening on stage. As long as its noisy and vaguely in time, they can dance to it and that's all they care about. If you want to hear something new and fresh, you choices are much more limited and you have to work a lot harder but that's no different in theatre or film or the visual arts. If you are interested in quality, be that cars, pens, ceramics or food, you have to pay more and travel further. You won't get much of that in a pub anywhere in the world, let alone Cardiff.

If all you want is applause, then you know what you need to do

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334570368' post='1617612']
I think it depends what you're trying to do. If you want to play covers in pubs or crowd pleasing pop/rock, then yeh, who cares how good you are as long as the audience likes it. Personally i'd rather be in a good band
[/quote]

Well, yes. Although I sometimes get the feeling that some people on BC would rather they could dispense with the annoying requirement to deliver something in return for the entrance fee. The mantra would seem to be "Playing bass would be great if it wasn't for audiences, bookers and other musicians.

It is [i]possible[/i] to play covers and be a good band.

[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1334570395' post='1617614']
Its the worst part of being a musician innit? Having to watch some pants band and knowing that they're getting paid for it when you maybe aint earning regularly.
[/quote]

Which band is [i]more[/i] pants? The one performing or the one [i]not[/i] performing? If the function of a band is to perform and get paid, then the pants (but working) band wins. Which means we're the losers, not them. We're the ones who have to up our game.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1334570609' post='1617622']
And what's wrong with doing both..?
[/quote]

Nothing at all. But how many of us can? Watch any band, you can always see the old 'Tricky lick incoming' frown at the neck. Oh, we can knock those licks out, but how many of us know how to work our visuals into a mix with what the frontman's doing?

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334570444' post='1617615']
That's until you take into account recording
[/quote]

Well, yes. Because, as we all know, when punters download a song the first thing say is "Ooh, nice bass lick coming out of the bridge, mixolydian was it?"

Y'know, I despair sometimes. The whole point of being in a performing band is not about licks and gear and scales and 'self-expression'. Those are just some of the tools [i]by means of which[/i] one delivers the outcome of making people happy, getting paid and maybe copping a quick hand-job while you're loading out.

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar

[Panamonte]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334571022' post='1617632']
I saw an instrumental band called "animals as leaders" the other day. They didn't really move about much at all. Practically no communication with the audience either. After a 30mins support slot half of the venue were shouting for more.
[/quote]

I do accept that appropriate onstage demeanour may vary between genres Having said that, I remember seeing Spiritualized years ago - at the time of Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space - they were back-lit for pretty much all the gig and seemed to playing to each other rather than out to the audience. Loved the material they were playing, but it was one of the dullest gigs I've been to - completely devoid of any atmosphere (a bit like space ).

[discreet]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334571360' post='1617641']
...making people happy, getting paid and maybe copping a quick hand-job while you're loading out...
[/quote]

NOW you're talking!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1334571686' post='1617650']
NOW you're talking! [/quote]

It's the only technique that matters.