I can do better than that!

[cheddatom]

I didn't mean to be derogatory about covers bands. They can be "good" but their priority is to entertain their audience, where as my priority is the music.

Another example is Tool. When I saw them there was almost no movement, deffinitely no audience interaction etc, they were just playing for themselves, and it was one of the most amazing gigs i've ever seen - full of energy.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1334571336' post='1617638']
I think there are too many venues and bands that will work too cheap... ( fine line and all that )
if the pub/venue has to fill up their dates and takes chances...then the standard invariably drops a few times.
It doesn't take long to kill a venue.
[/quote]

This + 100

As a punter I used to go with my missus to a few local pubs at weekends when we had nothing else planned. TBH we saw so many second and third rate bands that we decided it wasnt worth the time and the effort and we'd be better off saving our money and staying at home

[Mog]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334571360' post='1617641']
Which band is [i]more[/i] pants? The one performing or the one [i]not[/i] performing? If the function of a band is to perform and get paid, then the pants (but working) band wins. Which means we're the losers, not them. We're the ones who have to up our game.
[/quote]

I'm comfortable with or without pants...............and theres photos to prove it!
[attachment=105233:habit.jpg]

Tis a dirty habit this pantsless game............

[charic]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334571360' post='1617641']
Well, yes. Because, as we all know, when punters download a song the first thing say is "Ooh, nice bass lick coming out of the bridge, mixolydian was it?"
[/quote]

So you've never been with a non-muso and listening to a track and they've said "that sounded really good"? That could well have been very difficult to play

I've just put a very difficult bass run into one of my bands songs, everyone who has listened to the track since putting in that run has commented on it (including non-muso's)

[JTUK]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334572444' post='1617673']
I didn't mean to be derogatory about covers bands. They can be "good" but their priority is to entertain their audience, where as my priority is the music.

A[/quote]

We play covers at this time..but an original set is in progress............. but I don't see the difference, tbh.
We play the songs we want to play and there are loads of songs we wont go near..as they are the songs that most other bands will fill their set with.

But it is our decision and we will live or die on the back of our set.
I am quite happy with our standing on our local circuit and the quality of gigs we do...

But you have to cut your cloth the way you see fit..it is no use charging £500 for a pub set when a LL can get a band to do it for far far less. or you can..you just wont work too much.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334572444' post='1617673']
I didn't mean to be derogatory about covers bands. They can be "good" but their priority is to entertain their audience, where as my priority is the music.[/quote]

We knew that. It's all good

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334572444' post='1617673']
Another example is Tool. When I saw them there was almost no movement, deffinitely no audience interaction etc, they were just playing for themselves, and it was one of the most amazing gigs i've ever seen - full of energy.[/quote]

Ah. So you found it - [i]entertaining[/i]? They [i]entertained[/i] you?

Learning how to wave at the audience is only step 1. Learning how to be entertaining [i]without[/i] waving at the audience is step 2

[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1334572520' post='1617678']
I'm comfortable with or without pants...............and theres photos to prove it!
[attachment=105233:habit.jpg][/quote]

Ah, the old 'Comedy Nun' gambit. Probably more controversial in The Emerald Isle[sup][size=2]TM[/size][/sup] than over here, but I'm willing to give it a go.

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334571360' post='1617641']
and maybe copping a quick hand-job while you're loading out.
[/quote]

Well I hope its not the drummer again - hes not very sensitive

[discreet]

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1334572877' post='1617692']
Well I hope its not the drummer again - hes not very sensitive
[/quote]

Those callouses don't help, either... or [i]do [/i]they?

[discreet]

[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1334572520' post='1617678']
Tis a dirty habit this pantsless game...
[/quote]

I like what you did, there... but the pic is inconclusive. I'm nun the wiser.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1334573063' post='1617701']
[/quote]

Stop that or it's for you, my lad.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334572733' post='1617685']
So you've never been with a non-muso and listening to a track and they've said "that sounded really good"? That could well have been very difficult to play [/quote]

Never. Well, there are musos, non-musos and punters.

Muso = Nice run. Mixolydian?

Non-muso = Sounds like King Crimson. I've got the vinyl of Lark's Tongues In Aspic but I don't go to see bands. I smell.

Punter: Do you think he likes me? Where's Zoe? She's got my handbag.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar

[discreet]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334573159' post='1617705']
Stop that or it's for you, my lad.
[/quote]

By the foetid shag-tent of Emin, NOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Bilbo]

The old 'E' word (that's entertainment....I feel a song coming on). It is not the only reason for music to be produced, and there are many different perspectives to be taken on the concept of entertainment. Jummping up and down is only one form of entertainment (just the most common by a country mile). Like any commercial product, you need to establish your market and if that market is a 1,000 people in a pub on a Saturday night (or 7 million on live tv), your product will be different to that of, say, an Arts Centre on a Wednesday or a church on a Sunday. But, like all areas of the Arts, there is always a group of people (call it an audience or a market) who are looking to be stimulated by what artists are creating rather than waiting to be given some sort of pre-determined version of 'what they want'.

Music for a Hollywood blockbuster film requires one sort of music, for an obscure independent film with minimal budget, another will be sought. A dance troupe may want to work with an improvising saxophonist whilst a poet may work with a solo double bass player. Its all legitimate but it will all result in varying levels of financial gain. Ceiri Torjussen's 'Concerto for Eight Flutes' is not going to get the Dog and Duck on its feet and won't make him a millionaire but it will interest a certain clientele and has a legitimate right to exist.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334573774' post='1617722']
The old 'E' word (that's entertainment....I feel a song coming on). It is not the only reason for music to be produced.
[/quote]

But if you are playing covers in a pub (which is what the OP is all about) then it's at least 99% the reason.

[Mog]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1334573144' post='1617703']
I like what you did, there... but the pic is inconclusive. I'm nun the wiser.
[/quote]


Thankfully I couldnt find any full length shots.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1334574185' post='1617736']
But if you are playing covers in a pub (which is what the OP is all about) then it's at least 99% the reason.
[/quote]

I think that's deffinitely true, which is why some below-par musicians get plenty of gigs. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that I can't stand to be at these performances.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334573774' post='1617722']
Ceiri Torjussen's 'Concerto for Eight Flutes' is not going to get the Dog and Duck on its feet and won't make him a millionaire but it will interest a certain clientele and has a legitimate right to exist.[/quote]

Bilbo is right, as is often the case when we agree. Entertainment is everywhere in everything and need not be the sole preserve of covers bands. Yet covers band gigs is the thrust of this thread, unless I am mistaken. Hence the focus thereupon.

That said Mr Torjussen's flutey epic certainly does have a right to exist, funded though it may presumably have been by his soundtrack work for those art-house faves Die Hard 4, Cheaper By The Dozen and - er - Dracula: Legacy.

See, [i]there's[/i] a radical concept to set the feathers flying in the Basschat henhouse. Knock out some crowd-pleasing stuff and use the money for projects with a more selective appeal.

But then I just don't get this either / or thing to which so much importance is attached. Why not write original material which is also crowd-pleasing? Oh, I forgot. Originals is - apparently - all about art and challenge and brain-ache and twatting around with clever scales.

Silly old me.

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334575069' post='1617763']
I think that's deffinitely true, which is why some below-par musicians get plenty of gigs. [/quote]

The reason why below-par* musicians get plenty of gigs (in a competitive market) is that they (or their band-y confreres) are better at getting gigs than some above-par* musicians. That's the only reason, afaics.

[size=2]*Band rankings as defined by BABB (British Association of Bedroom Bassists. Tongue-out smiley, 'kay?)[/size]

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar

[cheddatom]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334575755' post='1617779']
But then I just don't get this either / or thing to which so much importance is attached. Why not write original material which is also crowd-pleasing? Oh, I forgot. Originals is - apparently - all about art and challenge and brain-ache and twatting around with clever scales.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone is saying you have to choose between original material and crowd-pleasing. However, there are different levels of originality, and different ways to please different crowds.

I used to know a band which toured under two names. One for their original stuff, and another for their covers/functions. They strived to please both crowds with the hope that eventually their original stuff would take over. By doing this they managed to make a living by playing music - what they loved doing.

[Bilbo]

I guess for some writing more crowd pleasing stuff is not engaging enough to want to invest time and effort in (and, dare I say it, it may not be where their talents lie).

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334569926' post='1617607']
It's always tempting to vent over this sort of thing. After all, one has put so much effort into mastering one's instrument and one's material and being musicianly and whatnot.

But really, it's not remotely about this other band's technical failings. Somehow or another, they must be doing [i]something[/i] right because they've got the gig and the OP hasn't. Perhaps someone in their band is a consummate gig-blagger. Perhaps their marketing is better. Maybe a booker looks at their setlist and thinks "That's the right mix". Maybe they played for free. Maybe the drummer's related to the booker.

Whatever the reason, they've exploited it and there's little benefit in us going down the "Bookers are stupid and punters are stupid" route because you have to work with what you're given.

Selling a band in to a booker is like selling anything else. Find out what people want and give it to them. Problem is, many of us start out by focussing on what [i]we[/i] want to play and how to play it - genre, material, arrangements etc. That's the wrong way round if your aim is to secure regular gigs at local venues. The crafty ones survey the market and focus as much on how they present their offering as how they deliver it.

As for punters not noticing, well who cares if they notice or not? Our job is not to present a faultless musical display but to entertain them in the broadest possible sense. Let's face it, if people will happily dance to a record, they're clearly not too bothered about the 'live' component. They just want a beat and a tune, preferably one they know.

Audience engagement is about much more than playing the right notes, yet how often is this critical issue discussed on BC? Hardly ever. The reason why we're collectively less successful than we could be is because we spend too much time on here agonising about tone and cables and guitarists' irritating little habits.

Frankly, looking an audience member in the eye and smiling at them is a lot more productive than executing that fancy lick we spent all afternoon learning. But we never learn.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

This. ALL of this.

When I was a teenager I was in a great band musically with great songs, but at every gig we would just get stoned and stand on stage staring at our fretboards... Then wondered why we weren't getting the reaction we expected!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334576211' post='1617790']
I guess for some writing more crowd pleasing stuff is not engaging enough to want to invest time and effort in (and, dare I say it, it may not be where their talents lie).
[/quote]

[i]Of course.[/i]

Gig-wise, everything depends on 'the crowd's' expectations. If a lot of people turned up to one of your jazz gigs and enjoyed themselves, you'd have pleased the crowd and - by extension - yourself. Though I wonder about the last part, sometimes. Does the sound of happy laughter curdle the gigging jazzer's blood? Probably why they threw me out of Ronnie Scott's.

And [i]of course [/i]some peoples' talents do not lie in writing crowd-pleasing material. They lie in writing crowd-displeasing material, which is why they're staring at an empty room. Mission accomplished.

Anyway, I don't know why we're talking about originals. Bass players can't write songs, as any fule kno. That's the guitard's job.

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar

[Silvia Bluejay]

When I was exclusively a music lover, and not yet a musician, I enjoyed going to see cover bands, but I was perfectly able to notice when they weren't good - simply because in those cases the songs I knew and loved did not sound like the songs I knew and loved.

It doesn't matter that I was reasonably music-savvy and could tell that the singer was out of his range and sounded nothing like Sebastian Bach, or that the guitarist's grasp of scales definitely wasn't going to cause Kirk Hammett any sleepless nights, or that it bloody well wasn't Geezer Butler playing on that version of Heaven And Hell, etc. Even if I had been without that knowledge, the songs would simply have sounded wrong.

However, many people like to go to a pub where a band is playing and throw a few shapes after downing a few pints, and aren't able to tell the difference between a good and a bad performance, even when they know and love the songs they hear. And if they have a good time and come back, landlords will be happy to have them again.

As many said before, it's a matter of what you want to achieve. The better bands will make progress and have a chance to leave the pub circuit for something better, while the crap bands will stay where they are.
When I say 'have a chance' I don't mean they will necessarily make it, because the market is tough, but at least they'll be able to try.

Having said that, there are many examples of worthless bands or individuals who go on to make it. Unfortunately that's a fact of life and it happens in all fields. I work as a technical translator - among other things - and have got used to clients not being able to tell a good translation by someone highly qualified, who knows the subject inside out, from ungrammatical offerings by someone who just happens to be Italian and speak a bit of English, and whose actual day job is being a waitress or a builder.
Choosing the less good - but invariably cheaper - option will usually come back to bite the client on their behind, in due course, but in the meantime it's quite galling to be part of such an uninformed selection process and often lose out.

The only thing to do is persevere, because we love what we do and we love to do it to the best of our ability. And there are still people out there, in all fields, who can tell the difference.

[Mylkinut]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334576923' post='1617808']
And of course some peoples' talents do not lie in writing crowd-pleasing material. They lie in writing crowd-displeasing material, which is why they're staring at an empty room. Mission accomplished.

[/quote]

Yup - I could be in yet another 3-chord pop-punk band, hate the music but get a big crowd. Instead I play music I like to nobody. Lots of peace and quiet, it's lovely

Edited April 16, 2012 by Mylkinut

[chris_b]

To the players who think, "I can do better than that"; don’t whinge, do it.

To the originals bands that are not gigging or who are paying to play; write better songs.

To the musicians who look down their noses; if you can’t get an audience who are not your mates through the door you’re actually not as good as you imagine.

[Roland Rock]

Chris B: Truth Dispenser

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1334577790' post='1617838']
Chris B: Truth Dispenser
[/quote]

Like a mighty Pez dispenser of truth, even. Respeck! (clicks fingers like homie, rheumatism flares up)

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar